Toyota FT-86 to Race in VLN Race @ Nurburgring this Weekend! First Photos!

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by r1vale

I think I'm gonna have to clarify a few things here.
Sp3 (like all SPecial classes) isn't a stock or even close to stock class. Far from it!
Actually you're allowed to change, tune or mod (almost) everything you want. For example you could swap the engine for another engine of the the same make, or you could modify your engine by changing the bore/stroke, the crank, the camshafts, etc. The only limitation is, that your block needs a serial number on it, that identifies it as a product of your carmaker.
If you want to take a look at the regulations, you can find them here:http://adac.24h-rennen.de/uploads/me...ng_2011_01.pdf (Sp classes start page 61, engine stuff page 64)

And because of that the Civic is a real full on Racecar and not anywhere near stock. More Info on the Civic:
http://mugeneuro.com/index.php?mact=...t01returnid=60
http://www.jasmotorsport.com/en/RaceA.aspx?Id=85&Aut=90

If you want to compare the FT to other equally stock cars, you should take a look at the V3 class as those cars will have rougly the same mods as the FT and also have 2l engines.
This chart will give you a rough idea of their abilities and specs: http://www.vln.de/includes/download...._Matritzen.pdf

Thanks for the info. Just to confirm, the Autohaus Civic Type-R (MUGEN NR11 K20A) that's classed SP3 is the same as the Jas Motorsports Civic Type-R FN2-Circuit?

Based on what you wrote, it's unclear to me why the FT was SP3 and not V3 (I can't read German). But if I interpreted the results correctly, it seems the FT would've finished mid-pack had it been in the V3 class anyway.

According to that last document, the V3 class Civic makes 148 kW (201 hp) and weighs 1261 kg (2780 pounds)... do you know how it placed?

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by VenomRush

you're saying 200hp is enough, so am I, but the guy i quoted is stating that its low power for a (projected) mid 20k car. if he feels that way, a v6 camaro or mustang might be up his alley. and about your everyday driving being fun, whats fun about driving up to a traffic light and stopping when it turns red?

I don't think he was saying 200hp is too low, the piece he quoted said "Assuming they manage to keep that BMEP while moving peak power to 7000rpms, the FT86 engine would have 175hp." I assumed he was saying 175hp is too low.

What's fun about stopping at a red light? Nothing. The fun comes in when that red light turns green.

Originally Posted by blur

So what's the problem here? If your going to boost it then who cares about the stock performance figures?

And please stop proposing your thirst for power campaign here. Power is the most easily achievable mod; everything else is much more difficult...

Mostly this:

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Not really. If your looking for big power reliably it can cost more than handling modifications. Especially on a engine that's not F/I and have high compression.

If they [Subaru/Toyota/Yamaha] thought 175hp was acceptable for a redesigned performance oriented 2-liter boxer engine, it would make me wonder what other lackluster expectations they considered acceptable. I guess I'm weird in that I'm not going to reward a car company for building a car that I feel is an underachiever.

Put me on ignore if you don't want to read my thirst for power campaign. I don't mind. :happy0180:

[suprachica79]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

I don't think he was saying 200hp is too low, the piece he quoted said "Assuming they manage to keep that BMEP while moving peak power to 7000rpms, the FT86 engine would have 175hp." I assumed he was saying 175hp is too low.

What's fun about stopping at a red light? Nothing. The fun comes in when that red light turns green.



Mostly this:



If they [Subaru/Toyota/Yamaha] thought 175hp was acceptable for a redesigned performance oriented 2-liter boxer engine, it would make me wonder what other lackluster expectations they considered acceptable. I guess I'm weird in that I'm not going to reward a car company for building a car that I feel is an underachiever.

Put me on ignore if you don't want to read my thirst for power campaign. I don't mind. :happy0180:

+1 to everything you just said

[zigzagz94]

I know everyone else hates it but the uber-spoiler and bodykit are growing on me.

[dominican]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

I'm sorry, but I must respectfully disagree. I'm buying a car to have fun in, not only in a straight line or on twisty curves, but with every day driving. They're not building this car with ONLY curved roads in mind, they're marking it as an economical, low-budget sports car. So the thing better be fun to drive in all situations. If I want to pass my grandmother in her V6 Camry on the freeway, I shouldn't have to downshift, peg it, and pray that she takes her foot off the accelerator.

While I'm not expecting a 350hp 2-liter, 200hp here in 2011/12 isn't THAT much to ask. I'm actually pretty confident that it will be pretty damn close to 200hp with all the tech going into it and knowing Yamaha is getting their hands on it.

Actually, downshifting and pegging the tach is a very fun way to pass someone. Hearing the engine roar gets the blood pumping in all the good areas. The flat 4 with about 200 horsepower will be good enough to move this car. I have a Prelude, and it weighs about 2900 pounds, with 200 horsepower, it is actually more than fast enough to deal wth everyday traffic, and comfortably pass just about anyone. Imagine what a little more horsepower, a little less weight, and a lot more RWD will do to the fun factor of the car.

[Dark]

Originally Posted by zigzagz94

I know everyone else hates it but the uber-spoiler and bodykit are growing on me.

They do look good, but I think they are a bit overstyled. If they can restyle it to simpler looking, I will take it.

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by dominican

Actually, downshifting and pegging the tach is a very fun way to pass someone. Hearing the engine roar gets the blood pumping in all the good areas. The flat 4 with about 200 horsepower will be good enough to move this car. I have a Prelude, and it weighs about 2900 pounds, with 200 horsepower, it is actually more than fast enough to deal wth everyday traffic, and comfortably pass just about anyone. Imagine what a little more horsepower, a little less weight, and a lot more RWD will do to the fun factor of the car.

Downshifting and pegging it wasn't the point, having the other vehicle take their foot off the accelerator was.

I had a 98 Prelude for about a year, was a fun car to drive. 200HP is plenty/just enough for this car. 175HP is not.

Originally Posted by zigzagz94

I know everyone else hates it but the uber-spoiler and bodykit are growing on me.

I've always been an anit-wing guy, but I actually like the Subaru mega wings.

[r1vale]

Originally Posted by Deslock

Thanks for the info. Just to confirm, the Autohaus Civic Type-R (MUGEN NR11 K20A) that's classed SP3 is the same as the Jas Motorsports Civic Type-R FN2-Circuit??

Yes, it's the same car, they bought it from Jas.

Originally Posted by Deslock

Based on what you wrote, it's unclear to me why the FT was SP3 and not V3 (I can't read German).

The reason why they had to start in Sp3, and would not have been allowed to start in V3 is a little complex. Basically it's down to the very close to stock character of the V3 category(and all the other V classes), where you're allowed to modify almost nothing, except for mandatory safety features like a rollcage, fire extinguisher, etc.
The only things performance wise you're allowed to change are basically: brake pads, shock absorbers/coils and the exhaust (except for the manifold). Plus the power output has to be stock (+- 5%).
And there you've got the biggest problem with the FT at this point: At the moment it's still a prototype, which means you've got no existing stock configuration as reference points. And these reference points are very important for this class, as it's main goal is to provide a cheap way to race and to balance every car's performance until they are all equally fast. And with a prototype like the FT, you won't be able to do that, as the specs are still unknown and might even change a bit from time to time, due to the ongoing development of the car.
ON top of that things like the Ft's "wing" or the additional bodywork in the front probably wouldn't be legal in this class, even though i don't think they provide a big performance gain.

Originally Posted by Deslock

But if I interpreted the results correctly, it seems the FT would've finished mid-pack had it been in the V3 class anyway.
According to that last document, the V3 class Civic makes 148 kW (201 hp) and weighs 1261 kg (2780 pounds)... do you know how it placed?

Concerning lap times you have to keep in mind that they are not racing to brake any lap records at this stage, they just want to get to know the car, see how it performes in general and definitely don't want to crash.
But that aside, yes I'd say it ran mid-pack compared with the V3 cars.

The fastest of the 2 Civic placed 99th (around 8 min ahead of the ft) and the slower 117th (2 min ahead). FT: 120th
But concerning the results, it seems to me they took their time in the pits and didn't release the car as fast as they could have, but instead checked it and took a look at the data first.
And if you want to look up the results yourself, here you can find them: http://vln.de/rennen.gb.php?id=2011-10-15## (If you click on the number of the car, you can also see every single lap time of the race)

[Michel]

The pitstops went okay, they checked the brakes (visually), new tyres, refueled and cleaned windows. That's about it really. So they didn't took that long, other then the one pitstop when the race got red flagged hehe..

But yeah, considering it's their first time out in a race they obviously need time to setup the car and that just takes a little time. I know they're serious about it, I've seen them in person now and I can tell you all they're not playing around. I'm pretty convinced we'll see progress in their results.

Now the big question is..will the FT86 attend the 24hr race next year alongside the LF-A ? I sure hope so

[dominican]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

Downshifting and pegging it wasn't the point, having the other vehicle take their foot off the accelerator was.

I had a 98 Prelude for about a year, was a fun car to drive. 200HP is plenty/just enough for this car. 175HP is not.



I've always been an anit-wing guy, but I actually like the Subaru mega wings.

Yea, 175 is really not enough for me to even consider this car. 200 is just about enough, so then I can modify it and get a little more oomph. I basically want to replace my PRelude, and if this thing is about as fast as the Prelude, with RWD, and good looks (it's looking pretty good so far) it'll be the right car for me.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by suprachica79

+1 to everything you just said

Originally Posted by zigzagz94

I know everyone else hates it but the uber-spoiler and bodykit are growing on me.

I love it too!!! Kinda like a Type R kit for the Scion.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by r1vale

Yes, it's the same car, they bought it from Jas.

{snip}

But concerning the results, it seems to me they took their time in the pits and didn't release the car as fast as they could have, but instead checked it and took a look at the data first.

Thanks for the detailed response, especially regarding why it was classed SP3. It all makes sense now.

I see the FT's laptimes varied a bit, but its best lap was in-between the best laps of the two V3 Civics, while the SP3 Civics are clearly in a different league.

I'm not at all concerned about these results. I assumed they'd be taking it easy, and the FT still did reasonably well (also the cars I find to be the most fun to drive aren't especially fast at a track like Nurburgring).

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

Downshifting and pegging it wasn't the point, having the other vehicle take their foot off the accelerator was.

Even in my lowly '99 MX5, I've never had a problem passing on the highway, and I certainly never worry about someone easing off so I can finish passing them.

Doing it on roads with oncoming traffic is a different story. There are situations in which my WRX and RX8 could pass with little effort where my MX5 needs me to build up a little speed first. But it's all relative... there are many situations where my motorcycle could pass and my WRX and RX8 couldn't.

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

I don't think he was saying 200hp is too low, the piece he quoted said "Assuming they manage to keep that BMEP while moving peak power to 7000rpms, the FT86 engine would have 175hp." I assumed he was saying 175hp is too low.

He also quoted the rest of Nurburgring's post:

Originally Posted by Nurburgring

Now we know direct injection is being implemented, which usually means a BMEP improvement in the 8-10% range. Using a 10% improvement, BMEP 178,75 @ peak power, calculations show that the engine would have 193 SAE hp. There is NO WAY this engine is making 210hp. It will barely make it to 200.

193 HP, not 175 HP.

Weight will be far more important than whether it makes 193 or 200 HP. IMO, either will be fine if it's 2555 pounds.

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by Deslock

Even in my lowly '99 MX5, I've never had a problem passing on the highway, and I certainly never worry about someone easing off so I can finish passing them.

Doing it on roads with oncoming traffic is a different story. There are situations in which my WRX and RX8 could pass with little effort where my MX5 needs me to build up a little speed first. But it's all relative... there are many situations where my motorcycle could pass and my WRX and RX8 couldn't.

He also quoted the rest of Nurburgring's post:

193 HP, not 175 HP.

Weight will be far more important than whether it makes 193 or 200 HP. IMO, either will be fine if it's 2550 pounds.

I'm not expecting a 200HP coupe to have the same highway passing characteristics as my Kawasaki ZX14, but it also better not be like my mother's 1997 VW Jetta. Our roads down here in Florida are overpopulated by elderly people so, as you can imagine, the need to pass one presents itself almost every time I leave my house. 60-80MPH acceleration is pretty important and I hope it's quick enough so that I'm able to successfully pass someone more times than not.

I must've misread that later part of Nur's post. I retract what I say and I'm in agreement with VenomRush's original reply. I would prefer the car hit the 200HP mark, but 193 would be acceptable if they kept the weight down below 2600#s and the price down around $20k.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

I'm not expecting a 200HP coupe to have the same highway passing characteristics as my Kawasaki ZX14, but it also better not be like my mother's 1997 VW Jetta. Our roads down here in Florida are overpopulated by elderly people so, as you can imagine, the need to pass one presents itself almost every time I leave my house. 60-80MPH acceleration is pretty important and I hope it's quick enough so that I'm able to successfully pass someone more times than not.

Holy Hell, back then even the VR6 (12v) was underwhelming. Such a dark time for VW here in the US.

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

I must've misread that later part of Nur's post. I retract what I say and I'm in agreement with VenomRush's original reply. I would prefer the car hit the 200HP mark, but 193 would be acceptable if they kept the weight down below 2600#s and the price down around $20k.

Yeah I figured there was a misunderstanding (and I'm right there with you... 200 hp would be nice).