Front LCA AVO vs Whiteline

[Calum]

Originally Posted by whataboutbob

In my opinion it would be a design improvement in the available parts if there were an adjustable end link that took the place of the coupler labeled "A" in this photo as well as having a bushing that could rotate in the LCA.

As I've already posted I installed the Whiteline ones this weekend and tried to get them aligned equally on both sides. When I went in for an alignment this AM the tech told me that there was a delta between the caster on both sides of my front wheels.

If I wanted to try to minimize that delta it would require me to un-press the bushing and make an adjustment. This process would probably require several iterations.

This is what I'm most concerned about with these. Did you or @vubaru take a base line of the caster before you installed the bushings? I've seen plenty of cars with close to a degree of caster difference from side to side, that had never been in an accident.

The second thing that worries me about these is the possible increased wear they'll cause on the forward bushing, due to the permanent axial deflection in that forward bushing. I didn't want to say it earlier, but now that @PERRIN_Jeff is here and can defend his product personally instead of the normal fan club vs fan club I'll voice my concern. I'm wondering why the other companies were satisfied with a 0.5 deg gain in caster while Perrin's PSRS pushes it to 0.6 deg and how this will effect the wear rate of the forward bushings in comparison to others?


Seeing as this isn't a vendors thread, I'd love to see some direct comparisons of why one product is better then the other and in what areas. Thank you @PERRIN_Jeff for posting and alleviating the NVH and wear worries. As with any product there will never be a clear cut winner. But if we can get some factual info as well as some user experience compiled together that would be fantastic. Thanks everyone for keeping this clean thus far.

[AZP Installs]

Perrin makes good products, however our experience through our customers here in the NY/NJ area on legacy GTs is that the NVH of the Perrin LCA bushings is way too high for non track use. In fact we've had customers make us remove the Perrin solid LCAs for the sole reason of NVH on at least 10 instances. Again this isn't saying the product is not good, just stating the overwhelming feeling of street driven cars here in NY/NJ.

-Mike Paisan


11+ Years Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Subaru Enthusiasts.
Call directly as We carry almost every manufacturer now, so before you buy parts call us.
Like us on Facebook! | E-mail: sales@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) | T-1 Certified Amsoil Direct Jobber |AIM: AZP Installs
"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by AZP Installs

Perrin makes good products, however our experience through our customers here in the NY/NJ area on legacy GTs is that the NVH of the Perrin LCA bushings is way too high for non track use. In fact we've had customers make us remove the Perrin solid LCAs for the sole reason of NVH on at least 10 instances. Again this isn't saying the product is not good, just stating the overwhelming feeling of street driven cars here in NY/NJ.

-Mike Paisan

My takeaway from this was that the Perrin product may make less NVH of drive only smooth roads, but the crumbling infrastructure of many areas makes for an uncomfortable ride.

[whataboutbob]

Unfortunately I didn't take any baseline measurements of the car before doing the bushing replacement. I didn't state it earlier, but my delta was half a degree in caster after the bushing install.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by AZP Installs

Perrin makes good products, however our experience through our customers here in the NY/NJ area on legacy GTs is that the NVH of the Perrin LCA bushings is way too high for non track use. In fact we've had customers make us remove the Perrin solid LCAs for the sole reason of NVH on at least 10 instances.

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

My takeaway from this was that the Perrin product may make less NVH of drive only smooth roads, but the crumbling infrastructure of many areas makes for an uncomfortable ride.

I am suggesting this come down to personal preference; what is too much nvh for one person might not be any concern for another.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by vubaru

Same. I'm not aware of the GT86 having any caster from the factory. That is why these products are made: to add caster. I can post my alignment specs later when I can scan them.

All cars come with some positive caster to help keep the car stable. It also provides camber gain as the wheel is turned and a more positive on center feel. The reason for these products is to improve upon the last two, mainly. Being a rear wheel drive car i would expect to see about 5 degs as stock. Many front wheel drives limit caster to help prevent torque steer.

Originally Posted by whataboutbob

Unfortunately I didn't take any baseline measurements of the car before doing the bushing replacement. I didn't state it earlier, but my delta was half a degree in caster after the bushing install.

Half a deg is actually decent, thats less then 10% difference. You probably have the bushings installed pretty well. Of couse even would be better, but you might not even notice that difference even on a track.

Sent from mission control

[gmookher]

they correct an out of spec condition

not made to be on fly adjusts..

[Calum]

Originally Posted by gmookher

they correct an out of spec condition

not made to be on fly adjusts..

I agree with the bolded section, these obviously arn't made to be adjusted. They should be installed and forgotten about.

But I don't think these are made to correct an out of spec condition.

Whiteline Anti Dive Kit is designed to add 0.5 deg static positive caster to both front wheels while changing the nature of front anti-dive & lift. These low compliance bushings also maintain higher dynamic positive castor & change the front control arm geometry that positively influences front suspension attitude. This leads to superior traction under power and braking, including cornering, dramatically reducing understeer & front wheel spin. The additional caster coupled with the new firmer bushings supplied serve to dramatically sharpen initial turn-in response then forcing more consistent alignment angles through the corner due to the reduced bushing compliance

The bushing in the PSRS is purposely offset from center-line. This adds almost 0.6 degrees of caster to the front suspension. Caster is the angle on which the steering knuckle rotates. Adding caster makes the car turn in faster by providing a larger contact patch as the wheels turn on the steering axis.

The Caster Adjustment Bushing system does just that, increases the caster up front slightly, and also replaces the big, squishy tennis ball that the front suspension pivots on with a harder polyurethane bushing. The increased caster will help both turn-in and straight line stability.

[gmookher]

My caster shifted about a half degree out of spec. these will correct that.

[AZP Installs]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

I am suggesting this come down to personal preference; what is too much nvh for one person might not be any concern for another.

Agreed 100%

-Mike Paisan


11+ Years Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Subaru Enthusiasts.
Call directly as We carry almost every manufacturer now, so before you buy parts call us.
Like us on Facebook! | E-mail: sales@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) | T-1 Certified Amsoil Direct Jobber |AIM: AZP Installs
"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

[Calum]

Originally Posted by gmookher

My caster shifted about a half degree out of spec. these will correct that.

What were you're before and after results?

[Calum]

Originally Posted by vubaru

OK, I stand corrected, I thought there was no static caster in the suspension stock but I was wrong. Not sure where I saw that. I wonder what the factory specs are for caster?

My difference between front wheels for caster is about .5 degrees, so I guess that's nothing to worry about and the AVO's are working as intended.

Originally Posted by Dezoris

Factory Range
Front: 5.2 through 6.7

From the alignment sticky, which I didn't know existed until just now.

[Whiteline]

Originally Posted by Calum

Hey guys,

Now that Christmas is over it's time for me to start picking my suspension upgrades. So far both AVO and Whiteline offer front lower control arm bushings with increased caster. I'm wondering if anyone can make a compelling argument for one vs the other.

Thanks

Greetings, we'd like to comment on our KCA434 Anti Dive Caster Kit as requested via PM as well as address a few questions raised.

By modifying the front lower control arm anti-dive geometry we were able to minimize bushing deflection under hard braking conditions. The 0.5 degree of positive caster was the max we were able to safely engineer. The 0.5 deg caster will net you much more dynamic camber change under cornering, but will be dependent on each vehicles setup.

We engineered the KCA434 with an 85 Duro Synthetic Elastomer compound that translates into a dramatic increased steering response. You will notice a more responsive turn in, reduced understeer, and more tire grip.

Although we do our own product comparisons in house to gauge product integrity and research; we do not make habit in publishing those results. Results are used only for our internal market comparisons. We firmly believe results worth advertising should come from non-biased 3rd parties to maintain testing integrity.

That being said we have not tested the other above mentioned brand and would respect any organization that is creating meaningful product to push the driving experience.

Originally Posted by Calum

Thanks. It's just a street car, but the extra caster should allow me to run less static camber along with giving a better feel and more confidence.

Looking at pics of the whiteline bushings it looks like they have relief holes cut into them that should mimic a similar opening in the stock bushing. If I'm to believe moto iq's conclusion as to why the stock bushing has this I'd like to go with the WL. But I'm not sure.

Im also wondering about installation and longevity differences.

The pin holing feature is one of the features we've used to allow compliance and minimize NVH in areas/directions we feel necessary to improve ride quality.

Whiteline's Synthetic Elastomer Bushings come with a lifetime warranty. Simply put, our bushings do not fail! Anything that falls out of range is addressed immediately.

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

In the end my suggestion without careful research is this: a poly bushing is a poly bushing is a poly bushing. Whichever you find cheapest is the better deal. I bought AVO steering rack bushings for my WRX*because WL ones were sold out at the time.

Firstly, our Synthetic Elastomer Bushing is our own formulation that we've developed and evolved since our hill climb days that sets us apart from the current standards in the industry. We genuinely feel our formulation and technology puts us about 30 years advanced from current standards. I will concede that referring to our formulation as Polyurethane is much easier since that is what the market knows. We're also guilty of referring to our bushings as polyurethane. Vaguely similar in appearance, the Synthetic Elastomer formulation holds special characteristics unique from polyurethane that we now base our suspension geometry theory on.

The statement "A poly bushing is a poly bushing is a poly bushing" may be true if the tested manufacturers are using the same supplier; however, we do not agree with the statement in reference to our own formulation of Synthetic Elastomer. We'd be more than happy send a set of bushings to do life cycle tests. Our own testing has resulted in over 2 million cycles, which we then decided to shut the machine off as there was no signs of breakdown and we already reached more than double the targeted brands life cycle.

Originally Posted by sierra

I would avoid the Whiteline from the number of problems they seem to have reading through the posts.
They may be cheap but is it worth the possible hassle and will they last?

We have very high standards for consumer satisfaction and warranties. We've recently had a specific issue w/ a small batch and is currently under investigation. This product is being held until further notice.

We have had years of positive user experience so I encourage you not make a blanket statement on our entire line based off of a defected batch. We do hope you try out the later revision as we are determined to make it better than ever!

Originally Posted by vubaru

OK, I stand corrected, I thought there was no static caster in the suspension stock but I was wrong. Not sure where I saw that. I wonder what the factory specs are for caster?

My difference between front wheels for caster is about .5 degrees, so I guess that's nothing to worry about and the AVO's are working as intended.

The caster delta referred above is a stock condition built into the stock suspension. Your current setup seems to be on par w/ OE specifications.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biYi9wXcC7w"]FT-86, BRZ, FR-S factory wheel alignment review by Whiteline - YouTube[/ame]


I hope I was able to answer any relevant questions. Please feel free to ask any other questions. We'd love to spend more time on the forum but with so much more grip to activate around the world... our jobs never slow down!

Keep driving friends!!!

[Calum]

thanks everyone for your input. I PM'd AVO as well, but they haven't responded. No big deal, I've ordered the WL bushings from a Canadian shop.