Alignment needed after front camber bolt install?

[Calidrifter]

Nice I was going to ask what wheels you had.

What tires are you planning on getting?

[ayau]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Koni inserts and springs will probably work better for you. If you call TurnInConcepts they might even cut your stock damper bodies and insert the Konis for you, for a fee.

thanks. i'm looking at koni dampers right now and seeing what spring i could possibly pair them with.

[OrbitalEllipses]

RCE Yellows will go nicely. Golden combo in the Impreza world.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by Calidrifter

Nice I was going to ask what wheels you had.

What tires are you planning on getting?

most likely 215/45/17 direzza star specs II mounted on 17x7.5 +50 ce28n.

i looked at the rs3 but everyone says that they're not great in the wet. hopefully the direzza II will be just as good as the direzza I in terms of wet performance. i should have plenty of tire tread left on the OEM tires before the direzzas are out.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

RCE Yellows will go nicely. Golden combo in the Impreza world.

are the koni yellows better able to take on the stiffer spring rates compared to the OEM dampers? i know that RECE has stated many times that the OEM dampers are over-damped from the factory and are able to take on stiffer rates.

[Calidrifter]

The RCE and stock combo should last a while. The Koni's would probably be needed sooner for a more agressive drop.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by ayau

are the koni yellows better able to take on the stiffer spring rates compared to the OEM dampers? i know that RECE has stated many times that the OEM dampers are over-damped from the factory and are able to take on stiffer rates.

Konis will serve for these and the ones you get after. I'm staying on stock dampers for the time being, since they are pretty good (miles better than Impreza). A mild drop and good handling without the hassle of building and adjusting a new damper is what I'm after. Get camber plates if you're that worried about camber/caster. Should out perform any <$2K coil over setup unless you're looking for height and damper (compression/rebound) adjustability.

Springs $300. Rear LCA $300-600. Camber plates $300. FWIW inquire about RCE making "Black" springs; those are their stiffer line that would be better matched to an aftermarket damper.

[AZP Installs]

The Konis will be great for what you want to do. The RCEs will likely work well with your stock dampers as their drop is not dramatic at all. Anything beyond that though you will want the Konis. The nice thing about the Konis is that they carry a lifetime warranty and are adjustable so that you can fine tune it (and adjust them to be even, as most shocks/struts these days are not matched up in a set).

We will be offering Konis for sale pre-inserted into housings for folks who don't want to hack up their stock ones. Just waiting on KYB pricing for the housings and for Koni to actually start shipping their inserts for the BRZ/FRS then we'll start offering this to our customers.

-Mike Paisan


11+ Years Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Subaru Enthusiasts.
Call directly as We carry almost every manufacturer now, so before you buy parts call us.
Like us on Facebook! | E-mail: sales@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) | T-1 Certified Amsoil Direct Jobber |AIM: AZP Installs
"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

[celica73]

Originally Posted by AZP Installs

Anything you do by eye is not going to yield a good result. I'm sorry but this is just an ignorant way to go about things. Yes you can eyeball it as a temporary setup but long-term you want a real alignment anytime you touch the camber bolts.

Ugh. The ignorance that abounds on these forums amazes me sometimes.

-Mike Paisan

Eh, whatever you say. I've done alignment bolts multiple times on my BRZ, and I do check the alignment using alignment tools. I have toe plates and a camber gauge. It's easy to check, and in every case when I check, I think to myself, "Wow, this car doesn't change much when you adjust the camber."

I'm well aware of the fact adding negative camber causes a little bit of toe in. When I did the Subaru alignment bolts I still had toe OUT. When I added a second set of camber bolts I checked the toe again, and it had gone to about 1/8" in. I've got about -2.3 degrees of camber via bolts, it's a budget I'm willing to make. I want a little toe out up front, so yes I did adjust it after the 2nd set of bolts, but I didn't have to adjust it. 1/8" in is just fine.

In my "ignorance" I just maxed out the negative camber on both sides, and shocker, they are close enough to being the same I didn't need to change the camber side to side. For autocross, -2.3 isn't as much as I'd like, so I go for the most I can.

Scott

[AZP Installs]

Originally Posted by celica73

Eh, whatever you say. I've done alignment bolts multiple times on my BRZ, and I do check the alignment using alignment tools. I have toe plates and a camber gauge. It's easy to check, and in every case when I check, I think to myself, "Wow, this car doesn't change much when you adjust the camber."

I'm well aware of the fact adding negative camber causes a little bit of toe in. When I did the Subaru alignment bolts I still had toe OUT. When I added a second set of camber bolts I checked the toe again, and it had gone to about 1/8" in. I've got about -2.3 degrees of camber via bolts, it's a budget I'm willing to make. I want a little toe out up front, so yes I did adjust it after the 2nd set of bolts, but I didn't have to adjust it. 1/8" in is just fine.

In my "ignorance" I just maxed out the negative camber on both sides, and shocker, they are close enough to being the same I didn't need to change the camber side to side. For autocross, -2.3 isn't as much as I'd like, so I go for the most I can.

Scott

The point is you did actually check it on YOUR CAR it worked, great. However, not every car (even within the same make/model/year) will be the same as yours. The problem is that you have a sample size of a single car. Not a sample size of several 1000 cars over a decade.

-Mike Paisan


11+ Years Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Subaru Enthusiasts.
Call directly as We carry almost every manufacturer now, so before you buy parts call us.
Like us on Facebook! | E-mail: sales@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) | T-1 Certified Amsoil Direct Jobber |AIM: AZP Installs
"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

[Dezoris]

Let me answer definitively. You WILL NEED an alignment and this is based on facts.

Here is the alignment sheet from removing OEM Crash bolts and installing the SPCs.

You can see by some miracle the camber was both at 0.
However installing the new bolts greatly effected toe. Namely on the right side.

[celica73]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

Let me answer definitively. You WILL NEED an alignment and this is based on facts.

Here is the alignment sheet from removing OEM Crash bolts and installing the SPCs.

You can see by some miracle the camber was both at 0.
However installing the new bolts greatly effected toe. Namely on the right side.

LOL. Not a particularly relevant result. You put the bolts in and didn't set the camber, and got about "0" degrees per side, thus you remained at stock settings. Alignment guy then dialed in some neg. camber. Probably max per side (as I advised long ago in this thread). When he did it, your wonky toe actually got better (toed in a bit) because that's what happens when we add neg. camber via bolts.

Then, he tweaked it a bit (maybe) with the tie rods. We'll never know. All we know is that your initial toe was wrong.


What you really proved is that factory alignments often suck, and we might all be better served getting a fresh baseline alignment right off the showroom floor.



However, for fun, lets look at the numbers and do the math... or not, I suck at trig, so use the chart below. 24.5" is close enough to our tire diameter (24.6).

Your "before" measurement was -0.12* (L) and -0.23* (R). That translates to about -0.05" (L) and -0.1"(R) toe, or 0.15" (5/32 inch) total toe OUT. Just over an eighth of an inch. That is on the higher end of sporting. Your final numbers in inches equate to 0.08" total toe out (just shy of 3/32 inch). So you got things tweaked by 1/16". That is almost nothing. Put the car on the alignment rack a second time and the toe can change that much.

Summary:
You went from a little bit of toe out to a little less toe out. But the experiment isn't relevant.

[celica73]

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=12

Adding a degree of camber via crash bolts will result in 3/64" toe in per side. That isn't much.

The sample size is getting bigger... Lots of us are measuring, and getting the same results.

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by celica73

LOL. Not a particularly relevant result. You put the bolts in and didn't set the camber, and got about "0" degrees per side, thus you remained at stock settings. Alignment guy then dialed in some neg. camber. Probably max per side (as I advised long ago in this thread). When he did it, your wonky toe actually got better (toed in a bit) because that's what happens when we add neg. camber via bolts.

Then, he tweaked it a bit (maybe) with the tie rods. We'll never know. All we know is that your initial toe was wrong.


What you really proved is that factory alignments often suck, and we might all be better served getting a fresh baseline alignment right off the showroom floor.



However, for fun, lets look at the numbers and do the math... or not, I suck at trig, so use the chart below. 24.5" is close enough to our tire diameter (24.6).

Your "before" measurement was -0.12* (L) and -0.23* (R). That translates to about -0.05" (L) and -0.1"(R) toe, or 0.15" (5/32 inch) total toe OUT. Just over an eighth of an inch. That is on the higher end of sporting. Your final numbers in inches equate to 0.08" total toe out (just shy of 3/32 inch). So you got things tweaked by 1/16". That is almost nothing. Put the car on the alignment rack a second time and the toe can change that much.

Summary:
You went from a little bit of toe out to a little less toe out. But the experiment isn't relevant.

Actually what happened is I had 3 alignments. The one I posted done by myself. And it could not be anymore simple, and you don't need theoretical math to show what has been proven by actually doing what the poster asked: "Do you need to do an alignment after installing camber bolts?" YES

No matter how you want to play devils advocate, you should have an alignment.


This is what I did which provides a clear picture:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25001

3 Alignments, OEM, OEM Crash Bolts, then SPC Bolts
1. OEM Alignment to check and correct any issues.
2. Self installed crash bolts, then alignment which again shows the effect of changing camber on toe.
3. Then install of SPC camber bolts, and then an alignment done by myself and friend. Where changing camber had a direct effect on toe. And when getting cross camber corrected, toe still needed to be adjusted via tie rods and then camber slightly adjusted again and back and forth until things were even. Including driver weight.


It's about "variance" in alignment specs. Just because there is a large allowance or range, does not make having toe off from side to side or camber a good alignment. Those who have done any type of racing or performance oriented driving would never accept having -.12 toe on one side and 0 toe on the other.

When it comes down to it, when you are changing camber it will almost always effect toe. And if you want a GOOD alignment you need to adjust toe.

Your argument is exactly what I always hear from techs who do a ton of alignments, it's a lot more time and work to get an alignment dialed in evenly.