Help Gmookher decide AP racing Vs Stoptech BBK vs Essex SPRINT KIT

[BRAWL]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Pad choice would be the main criteria for daily driving. If you are tracking the car then of course they will require more frequent attention.

From http://www.essexparts.com/brake-caliper-strips.html
"Calipers that regularly run at up to 392°F - Re-seal every other event. Calipers that run intermittenly from 392°F to 428°F - Re-seal as soon as possible."

So what you're saying basically is that the lack of dust boots is not a major daily driver issue and that it is mostly down to pad choice?

I can live with that

A track day would take brakes past 392*F and would the need a re-seal every second time? More research by me is in order I think

[SpeedmasterBRZ]

No brakes because your dads a chemist.

On the serious side I know on at Miller Motorsports most of the track/street run Stoptechs with great success. But, I also think that AP has great kit and have used them in the past on other cars.

Between the two it think it would come down to looks with me. I would go AP but close behind them would be the Stoptechs.

[gmookher]

Originally Posted by Supermassive

I keep hearing good things about the Essex Sprint kit, and now am intrigued, it may be enough for my car and honestly as a dd my car already is not ideal with my KW's on Vorshlags, it's stiffer than a porn star on viagra, not to mention the 6 puck stage 4 clutch going in...I guess dd is a loose term for my build.

What FI solution are you on, curious, with that clutch?

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by LazyZed

How daily driver friendly is the Sprint kit though? I like the look of them and that they drop the unsprung weight, but if they need servicing more regularly they might not be suitable. Thoughts?

I've only used them for 4,000 miles so far so obviously my experience of long term usage isn't valid yet, but I have no concerns so far. If I lived up in the northern US where road salt is common my decision would have been a lot more difficult. Honestly the dust boot arguement, if you track your car anyways, really doesn't have much merit considering. Hell I *remove* the dust boots from my other street cars with OEM calipers because when I do track them it lets me avoid the mess.

I'm guessing I'll be putting 20k a year or more on this car with 6-9 track days per year, so I'll determine how long they last eventually

Joe brought up a good point with the Project Mu stuff. I have very little knowledge of their kits, who makes their calipers, etc but if they are in aust you are less likely to be anally abused on pricing if nothing else.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Supermassive

Ok after reading most of the brake threads on here, I have to say I'm still kinda unsure as to what I should be looking at for my application. I plan on running my car as a DD, with the occasional track day thrown in. I am about to install my turbo kit, and aiming for around 350-400 whp so I am hesitant to go with 4 pot calipers and smaller disks, sure I don't expect that during DDing that 4 pots would have much of a challenge hauling this car down from normal street driving speeds...I'm more worried about hauling down from 120+ mph and not feeling the brakes get heat soaked and fade. I will be running brake ducts sometime in the near future as well.

I am asking for a real unbiased opinion here because I am treading into unknown territory with this car...I used to track bikes but that was always just as simple as braided lines and race pads...here, I'm looking at full brake systems, calipers, pads, rotors, etc. and it's all kinda overwhelming because i have no frame of reference since I haven't tracked my own car ever.

Also before someone says i need to drive the stock FR-S on a track, to learn how to drive around a track, before throwing a ton of power at the thing. I know my limits, and did Skip Barber's racing school...but that was in 2000 so I may be rusty but the principles are still rattling around in my brain from tracking the bike.

The Essex Endurance kit is being used on high HP EVOs that weigh a whole lot more than our cars FWIW... I personally don't have the experience to say how much brake you'll need with your setup, but I can say that I highly doubt the answer will be 355x32 rotors with 6 pots...

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by JoeBoxer

I have been modding cars for years myself and have never tracked or did anything but a simple rotor/pad upgrade. I'm not an expert on bbk's at all but I would be concerned with going with a 6 piston front without doing a rear kit also. The Essex sprint systems don't seem very dd friendly regarding noise and no boots. The formula kit is nice but wish it was a 4 piston closer to sprint pricing. The larger stoptech kit sounds like a good option for you, I may have a set coming in real soon.

I agree, mostly because I think it'll look stupid without big rear brakes. If it's designed well it should be OK, but as we've seen in the past a lot of the time massive front brake kits are NOT designed correctly and increase stopping distance by screwing up bias. New cars with fancy traction control are rear biased a lot more than older cars though so who knows.

A note on the noise in the Sprint kit. You occasionally can hear a pad move around. In my car it only happens to one pad in the race pad set, the S100s don't move at all. Pad tolerance I guess. Also in my car it only happens when backing up and hitting the brakes and on occasional bumps (railroad tracks seem to be a favorite).

Of course, that loud ass popping from the rear deck is about 1,000x worse.

On the endurance, I'd suspect the same noise as the Sprint kit with the addition of the rotors sliding around on the hat. That's only going to be noticable at slow speeds also.

Hanakuso had more pad movement than I did. He was using Hawk pads so maybe they have looser tolerances?

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by LazyZed

So what you're saying basically is that the lack of dust boots is not a major daily driver issue and that it is mostly down to pad choice?

I can live with that

A track day would take brakes past 392*F and would the need a re-seal every second time? More research by me is in order I think

The good thing about most of these kits is that they use common pad shapes, so generally you can find almost any pad you want (well except for OEM of course).

The caliper itself shouldn't get super hot during a track day, the rotors will of course. I have temp strips but keep forgetting to install them, I will use them for my February track day at Sebring though. Now I wish there were open spots in Jan at Sebring to get the data sooner but unfortunately the saturday event is full

[Racecomp Engineering]

Lets all please stop looking at number of pistons as a measure of braking force.

Total piston area, yes. But 6 small pistons vs. 4 bigger pistons may (or may not) come out with the same piston area.

Now a 355mm kit is a bit of overkill.

Anyway...I agree with Dave-ROR that if you're looking for an easy solution with low noise and maintenance, the smaller stoptech and AP/Stillen street kits are great choices.

For a slightly better track set-up, the AP/Essex kits are very very hard to beat for the money. The endurance kit will perform really well with r-comps and lots of power.

- Andrew

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Lets all please stop looking at number of pistons as a measure of braking force.

Total piston area, yes. But 6 small pistons vs. 4 bigger pistons may (or may not) come out with the same piston area.

Now a 355mm kit is a bit of overkill.

Anyway...I agree with Dave-ROR that if you're looking for an easy solution with low noise and maintenance, the smaller stoptech and AP/Stillen street kits are great choices.

For a slightly better track set-up, the AP/Essex kits are very very hard to beat for the money. The endurance kit will perform really well with r-comps and lots of power.

- Andrew

This.

The main key for me on the 6 pot systems is that they are using 355x32 rotors, they'd need less piston area to have the same brake torque. Without doing the math I can't say what they actually have but I'd suspect it's the same piston area as the 4 pots, but the additional leverage will shift bias IMO. A great example of why you shouldn't look at piston count is our OEM calipers versas the WRX 4 pots

Again that's without doing any math, I'm against the 14" setups for other reasons (wheel size and weight) so I never bothered to check.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by nix

I am well and truly on the fence on this as well, and a bit of a brakes noob. I was going to do a ~$2k STI brembo + Dba rotor build, but starting to lean towards a more dedicated bbk upgrade.

This would still be my vote even for gmookher. To me the advantages are that it is an OEM braking system and replacements are very affordable. Can you get a full set of 4 rotors and pads for $700 shipped for any of the aftermarket brake kits? Proper pad selection is the key to getting the most out of any brake system you choose.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

This.

The main key for me on the 6 pot systems is that they are using 355x32 rotors, they'd need less piston area to have the same brake torque. Without doing the math I can't say what they actually have but I'd suspect it's the same piston area as the 4 pots, but the additional leverage will shift bias IMO. A great example of why you shouldn't look at piston count is our OEM calipers versas the WRX 4 pots

Again that's without doing any math, I'm against the 14" setups for other reasons (wheel size and weight) so I never bothered to check.

Right on.

- drew

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by King Tut

This would still be my vote even for gmookher. To me the advantages are that it is an OEM braking system and replacements are very affordable. Can you get a full set of 4 rotors and pads for $700 shipped for any of the aftermarket brake kits? Proper pad selection is the key to getting the most out of any brake system you choose.

With the OEM STI Brembo front and rear kit, bias is shifted heavily frontwards compared to stock and the caliper isn't all that great. Yes it's a pretty looking 4 wheel kit and OEM, but I would prefer just a better set of front calipers for performance reasons.

It's not bad and it does have some advantages, but for me it's just not an ideal solution.

- Andrew

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

With the OEM STI Brembo front and rear kit, bias is shifted heavily frontwards compared to stock and the caliper isn't all that great. Yes it's a pretty looking 4 wheel kit and OEM, but I would prefer just a better set of front calipers for performance reasons.

It's not bad and it does have some advantages, but for me it's just not an ideal solution.

- Andrew

Why would the 4 wheel STI setup bias be shifted "heavily" frontwards versus the OEM BRZ setup? The hot ticket on most OEM brake setups is to run a more aggressive pad in the rear anyways. I guess the question is whether gmookher is going to be needing to worry about making a late brake maneuver to pull off an inside pass going into 10a at Road Atlanta or whether he will just be doing some fun track days.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

I agree, mostly because I think it'll look stupid without big rear brakes. If it's designed well it should be OK, but as we've seen in the past a lot of the time massive front brake kits are NOT designed correctly and increase stopping distance by screwing up bias. New cars with fancy traction control are rear biased a lot more than older cars though so who knows.

A note on the noise in the Sprint kit. You occasionally can hear a pad move around. In my car it only happens to one pad in the race pad set, the S100s don't move at all. Pad tolerance I guess. Also in my car it only happens when backing up and hitting the brakes and on occasional bumps (railroad tracks seem to be a favorite).

Of course, that loud ass popping from the rear deck is about 1,000x worse.

On the endurance, I'd suspect the same noise as the Sprint kit with the addition of the rotors sliding around on the hat. That's only going to be noticable at slow speeds also.

Hanakuso had more pad movement than I did. He was using Hawk pads so maybe they have looser tolerances?

Purely speculation on my part, but perhaps the extra play is left for expansion as you get closer to MOT?