Can it be too sporty?

[82mm 4g63]

Assuming they ever do revive the Supra name there is no way in hell Toyota brings it back as a Scion. I don't care what they're trying to do with brand images. It's one thing to make the AE86's successor a Scion, but don't compare the AE86's history/heritage to the Supra's. They're not even in the same league.

The next Supra has to compete with a Vette, not a Mustang or Camaro. There is no way Toyota is going to compete with a $50-55k Vette with a $40k sticker price. At $40k it would be in Mustang GT/Camaro SS performance territory and it would be a big disappointment.

Originally Posted by fatoni

a 50% price increase is pretty big. 10k between a couple super cars or luxury barges is still pretty big but when you talk about a company that is pumping out 20k cars its gigantic.

the slr is huge and it isnt a sports car. amg make fast cars thats true but it takes more than fast to make a sports car.

my point is that you say it wouldnt make sense to have one sports car and i am saying that it does and most companies do that.

The SLR is heavy as hell, but it's definitely a sports car. S in SLR actually stands for sport. Ironically L stands for Light...lol. That's Germany for ya I guess.

[WingsofWar]

Inline-6 in general was a very smooth and incredibly balanced engine for its time not suffering from any dynamic imbalance. If any company is looking for perfect high performance AND good fuel economy, the only engine configuration that comes close to the same stats are a low displacement v8.

So i think a future supra could be equipped with a inline-6 if they want to stay true to it its DNA or a V8 to stay true to its ideals.

I had heard that the early LFA project was a supra, but then moved away into something more because they kept adding onto it. Leaving still a void for a supra project.

All I know is, if supra returns, it should be a heavy weight sports car contender at under 100k but not less than 60k. Which makes it unlikely to be sold under the Scion flag.

[Andy]

Although a twin turbo, Boxer 6 (Maybe Boxer 8 even )could be very interesting, especially if its got Yamaha and VVTLi type magic!



That is for a Supra I'm on about......

Hmmm Drool mode on!

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by fatoni

a 50% price increase is pretty big. 10k between a couple super cars or luxury barges is still pretty big but when you talk about a company that is pumping out 20k cars its gigantic.

the slr is huge and it isnt a sports car. amg make fast cars thats true but it takes more than fast to make a sports car.

my point is that you say it wouldnt make sense to have one sports car and i am saying that it does and most companies do that.

50%? What? As I've already said it's going to be Mid 20K, special Editions will be closer to and perhaps even over 30K. 40K is 10K more than 30K, it's not 50% more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_SLR_McLaren Say what you want about Wikipeida, but the SLR is by definition a sports car.

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

A big reason why it won't be a Scion......

.....but I'll see what I can do for you next time I tell Toyota what to do!
Reports say it was put on backburner due to Toyobaru and market conditions (GFC?). Reports also say Lexus still working on development.

I still wonder if this was just a precursor to the FT-86?

Has done for years. Uses same hybrid technology all their other hybrids use. Reports are suggesting a traditional gas version, as well as a hybrid, just like the rest of their line up.

???

How often do people use their Ferrari or Lamborghini for track duty?

Lexus seems to be all about hybrids these days. Their hybrid engines look similar in concept to the CR-Z's, not to mention more powerful than the gas only versions. 75% of all hybrids sold in USA are Toyota's.

I can't see straight 6 happening at all, and I'm sure it'll pack all the latest tech!

Depends on how you define true? I thought the LF-A was a Supra replacement.

Here's an interesting read. It also points towards another MR2 as well!
http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor...0625-z78h.html

Ok, the FT-HS wasn't just a Hybrid like the Prius. Second, how can it possibly be a precursor to the FT-86 if the FT-86 is coming out first and isn't a hybrid?? That literally makes no sense.

The FT-HS is thought to use capacitors to store energy from regenerative braking to use as power coming out of a Turn. Much different than the Prius. Getting the Gas Motor, the Electric Motor, the Capacitors, and the Regenerative braking to all work in Sync is going to pretty difficult. A lot of computing power is going to go into that.

More than you might think. This kind of Technology is perfect for the track.

How does Lexus Engines look like the CR-Z's?

The replacement Supra? If by "Tech" you mean more electronics, I doubt it. If the FT-86 is any indication.

That's not an interesting read. All it says is someone in a British mag said it, we asked an Australian Toyota Rep, they denied it. That doesn't point to anything. People are just making stuff up at worst, at best they are finding some tiny tidbit of what Toyota is working on and making wild conclusions based on what some people might like.

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

Inline-6 in general was a very smooth and incredibly balanced engine for its time not suffering from any dynamic imbalance. If any company is looking for perfect high performance AND good fuel economy, the only engine configuration that comes close to the same stats are a low displacement v8.

So i think a future supra could be equipped with a inline-6 if they want to stay true to it its DNA or a V8 to stay true to its ideals.

I had heard that the early LFA project was a supra, but then moved away into something more because they kept adding onto it. Leaving still a void for a supra project.

All I know is, if supra returns, it should be a heavy weight sports car contender at under 100k but not less than 60k. Which makes it unlikely to be sold under the Scion flag.

Why should it be more than 60K? What would you like to see it have that would push the price up so much?

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

Assuming they ever do revive the Supra name there is no way in hell Toyota brings it back as a Scion. I don't care what they're trying to do with brand images. It's one thing to make the AE86's successor a Scion, but don't compare the AE86's history/heritage to the Supra's. They're not even in the same league.

The next Supra has to compete with a Vette, not a Mustang or Camaro. There is no way Toyota is going to compete with a $50-55k Vette with a $40k sticker price. At $40k it would be in Mustang GT/Camaro SS performance territory and it would be a big disappointment.



The SLR is heavy as hell, but it's definitely a sports car. S in SLR actually stands for sport. Ironically L stands for Light...lol. That's Germany for ya I guess.

Again, why can't it? The Vette has a lot of computing power that it probably doesn't need. But people demand it for some reason. It's still a good value for the money. But I think Toyota could make a Corvette killer for $40K that's a purists car. That engine alone costs a lot, the frame and the way they make it is expensive (The Corvette). If anyone's got the chops to do it, it's Toyota.

[Type[R]+]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Ok, the FT-HS wasn't just a Hybrid like the Prius.

Hybrid synergy drive.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Second, how can it possibly be a precursor to the FT-86 if the FT-86 is coming out first and isn't a hybrid?? That literally makes no sense.

FT-HS 2007, FT-86 2009

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

The FT-HS is thought to use capacitors to store energy from regenerative braking to use as power coming out of a Turn. Much different than the Prius. Getting the Gas Motor, the Electric Motor, the Capacitors, and the Regenerative braking to all work in Sync is going to pretty difficult. A lot of computing power is going to go into that.

How is it hard? Store energy - power electric motor.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

How does Lexus Engines look like the CR-Z's?

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

The replacement Supra? If by "Tech" you mean more electronics, I doubt it. If the FT-86 is any indication.

Have you even seen the concept vehicle?

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

Hybrid synergy drive.


FT-HS 2007, FT-86 2009

How is it hard? Store energy - power electric motor.




Have you even seen the concept vehicle?

:l aughabove:

Of course..... because it's a Concept that came out first and has yet to see anything close to being in production!

Again, the FT-86 is not a Hybrid and is actually being released. In order for the FT-HS to be a precursor to the FT-86 it would have to already be in production. The come out with Concepts all the time. You can't call something that's never seen the light of day a precursor to car that's actually going to be produced.

Do you know anything about Capacitors? Electric Motors? Anything? Apparently not. Go learn about how Capacitors work. Then come back here. It's not like filling up a bottle then opening it up and drinking it whenever you want.

Which Concept Car? The FT-86? We don't have a Supra replacement Concept right now.

[serialk11r]

Capacitors have considerably less storage capacity and their voltage changes much more than a battery, so it definitely is not quite the same as a battery. However batteries on hybrid cars also have voltage converters to cope with fluctuations as well, it's just a matter of designing them for the more extreme behavior of a supercapacitor.

Toyota HSD has the most promise IMO of all hybrid systems, but it is quite complex and not quite like switching in a motor on the uh, whatever shaft, the way Honda IMA works (or VW's integrated alternator starter generator thing). My guess is that since the transmission's shape is very different from a typical transmission, having to house 2 large electric motors and more than 1 set of gears and differentials, it requires more work to adapt it to a car than usual. Besides, one main goal of the FT is to be affordable, and the extra several thousand $$$ quickly moves it beyond that point. Considering that the Prius starts at 23000 and is just a typical family car (more or less), with an extra cheap engine (rev limited to 4k, with weaker internals than the usual engine), and FWD, a hybrid FT quickly goes out of the price range for its class. At that point it would have to be seriously fast to make it worth it, except that's not really going to happen without an engine power increase, which isn't really going to happen.

Besides, they have some sort of hybrid sports thing planned already, which sounds like it'll be a different model altogether.

Also if they decide to pack some slightly advanced stuff into this car (VW style super mild hybrid), Valvematic (still praying this will happen within 3 years of release...) with dual VVT-i of course, and a gearbox with a proper cruise gear, the fuel economy will be good enough that HSD won't be worth it. Aside from the very capable regenerative braking HSD doesn't really bring that much to the table, as the speed the engine operates at isn't nearly as important to efficiency as getting the correct amount of torque out, which only requires good gearing. The better fuel economy of (Toyota) hybrids mainly comes from the Atkinson cycle engine, whose efficiency can be achieved with Valvematic anyways.

[Type[R]+]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

:l aughabove:

Of course..... because it's a Concept that came out first and has yet to see anything close to being in production!

what's so funny?

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Again, the FT-86 is not a Hybrid and is actually being released. In order for the FT-HS to be a precursor to the FT-86 it would have to already be in production. The come out with Concepts all the time. You can't call something that's never seen the light of day a precursor to car that's actually going to be produced.

Who said FT-86 was a hybrid?

Are you saying a concept car can't be a precursor to something else?

So why is everyone calling it the Lexus version of the FT86?

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Do you know anything about Capacitors? Electric Motors? Anything? Apparently not. Go learn about how Capacitors work. Then come back here. It's not like filling up a bottle then opening it up and drinking it whenever you want.

I'll forget all of my qualifications, training, and job in the power industry running all of these things for a minute, and let you explain to everyone about capacitors and what you think is so hard....

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Which Concept Car? The FT-86? We don't have a Supra replacement Concept right now.

FT-HS

And what was the precursor to the FT-HS?

[serialk11r]

lol Type[R]+ chill...
How is a capacitor not harder to use than a battery? A capacitor's voltage goes from its maximum to 0 as it discharges, and does this rather quickly since they don't store as much energy, a battery stays within a much narrower range when it is usable. The point isn't that it's not difficult (in some sense of the term), the point is that it's more difficult than a typical battery. You need a voltage converter that works across a greater range of conditions for the capacitor, do you not?

[Type[R]+]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

lol Type[R]+ chill...
How is a capacitor not harder to use than a battery? A capacitor's voltage goes from its maximum to 0 as it discharges, and does this rather quickly since they don't store as much energy, a battery stays within a much narrower range when it is usable. The point isn't that it's not difficult (in some sense of the term), the point is that it's more difficult than a typical battery. You need a voltage converter that works across a greater range of conditions for the capacitor, do you not?

They use ultra capacitors, much more powerful than regular capacitors.

It depends on how they integrate the ultra capacitors into the circuit, like using the ultra capacitors as main source with battery back up, or using them to make an ultra battery. Look up ultra battery, very nice tech...

But back to the capacitor circuit, yes you need a voltage converter, between the cat banks and the battery, and just use digital signal processor to control variables. I'm pretty sure this is how they do it anyway.

[serialk11r]

Yea I know ultracapacitors, didn't want to type the ultra. Ultracapacitors still have much lower energy density than batteries though.

Yea I guess it's hard to say, since if they use batteries along with it stuff changes a bit. So actually, what were we all arguing about in the first place? I can't remember...

Anyways.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

50%? What? As I've already said it's going to be Mid 20K, special Editions will be closer to and perhaps even over 30K. 40K is 10K more than 30K, it's not 50% more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_SLR_McLaren Say what you want about Wikipeida, but the SLR is by definition a sports car.





Ok, the FT-HS wasn't just a Hybrid like the Prius. Second, how can it possibly be a precursor to the FT-86 if the FT-86 is coming out first and isn't a hybrid?? That literally makes no sense.

The FT-HS is thought to use capacitors to store energy from regenerative braking to use as power coming out of a Turn. Much different than the Prius. Getting the Gas Motor, the Electric Motor, the Capacitors, and the Regenerative braking to all work in Sync is going to pretty difficult. A lot of computing power is going to go into that.

More than you might think. This kind of Technology is perfect for the track.

How does Lexus Engines look like the CR-Z's?

The replacement Supra? If by "Tech" you mean more electronics, I doubt it. If the FT-86 is any indication.

That's not an interesting read. All it says is someone in a British mag said it, we asked an Australian Toyota Rep, they denied it. That doesn't point to anything. People are just making stuff up at worst, at best they are finding some tiny tidbit of what Toyota is working on and making wild conclusions based on what some people might like.





Why should it be more than 60K? What would you like to see it have that would push the price up so much?





Again, why can't it? The Vette has a lot of computing power that it probably doesn't need. But people demand it for some reason. It's still a good value for the money. But I think Toyota could make a Corvette killer for $40K that's a purists car. That engine alone costs a lot, the frame and the way they make it is expensive (The Corvette). If anyone's got the chops to do it, it's Toyota.

oh okay as you have said its going to be mid 20s. even if i give you credit for knowing this to be fact somehow, thats still a 1/3 price hike. i dont understand how you can write something like that off. scion cant survive in that market anyways.

how is the slr by definition a sports car? it probably makes for a sporty luxury coupe but it is far from a sports car. 4000 lb weight and automatic transmissions arent characteristics of sports cars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_car say what you want about wikepedia but it is by definition not a sports car

and there is no way toyota could build a car to go head to head with corvettes for cheaper. nobody builds a lighter, smaller, more powerful motor that has any sort of reliability or economy. despite leaf springs they are on the cutting edge of suspension technologies. ferarri looks to chevy for suspension tech. what kind of computing power are you talking about that is in the vette? and do you really expect a japanese company to make a car more simple than this quintessential american muscle?

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by fatoni

oh okay as you have said its going to be mid 20s. even if i give you credit for knowing this to be fact somehow, thats still a 1/3 price hike. i dont understand how you can write something like that off. scion cant survive in that market anyways.

how is the slr by definition a sports car? it probably makes for a sporty luxury coupe but it is far from a sports car. 4000 lb weight and automatic transmissions arent characteristics of sports cars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_car say what you want about wikepedia but it is by definition not a sports car

and there is no way toyota could build a car to go head to head with corvettes for cheaper. nobody builds a lighter, smaller, more powerful motor that has any sort of reliability or economy. despite leaf springs they are on the cutting edge of suspension technologies. ferarri looks to chevy for suspension tech. what kind of computing power are you talking about that is in the vette? and do you really expect a japanese company to make a car more simple than this quintessential american muscle?

Well going by wiki's definition of sports car, the SLR is a sports car. A high-powered sports car actually.

SLR weighs 3900lbs
Veyron weighs 4162lbs

"high-powered sports cars, e.g. Porsche, Lamborghini, and the Bugatti Veyron."

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

Well going by wiki's definition of sports car, the SLR is a sports car. A high-powered sports car actually.

SLR weighs 3900lbs
Veyron weighs 4162lbs

"high-powered sports cars, e.g. Porsche, Lamborghini, and the Bugatti Veyron."

i was alluding to the mimimal weight issue and pointing out that wikipedia isnt really good for anything. if a car weighs that much it isnt isnt putting sport first and foremost so it isnt a sports car. things like the gtr might have a case simply because the performance per dollar is so high and corners had to be cut but at 500k it would be much lighter if it wasnt putting luxury ahead of sport