2nd gear synchro FIX- MT owners read this thread

[zoomzoomers]

Originally Posted by gmookher

well if a tech told you ..well....
...
simple-then dont change your fluid if you believe its "lifetime fill"

If you go back and spend a few second and re-read my posts I've never stated whether one should or shouldn't change any of their car's fluids. That's obviously up to the owner. I was only wondering whether "I" should change out my car's diff and trans fluids and what benefits it would add. So relax you'll have a better day for it.

[Marrk]

Originally Posted by zoomzoomers

If you go back and spend a few second and re-read my posts I've never stated whether one should or shouldn't change any of their car's fluids. That's obviously up to the owner. I was only wondering whether "I" should change out my car's diff and trans fluids and what benefits it would add. So relax you'll have a better day for it.

"I" should certainly do whatever "I" wants. After all, this is America. We never question stupidity here.

The car companies, like BMW, would like you to believe that you never have to change any fluids. It sounds both miraculous and cheap. It allows them to sell more cars. But there is no support for this statement.

Again, if "I" is making decisions in order to save money, then "I" should make the cheapo, short-view decision. However, if "I" wants to know if "I" should change his fluids or believe the car company propaganda, then I am saying that you should change your fluids.

[zoomzoomers]

Originally Posted by Marrk

"I" should certainly do whatever "I" wants. After all, this is America. We never question stupidity here.

The car companies, like BMW, would like you to believe that you never have to change any fluids. It sounds both miraculous and cheap. It allows them to sell more cars. But there is no support for this statement.

Again, if "I" is making decisions in order to save money, then "I" should make the cheapo, short-view decision. However, if "I" wants to know if "I" should change his fluids or believe the car company propaganda, then I am saying that you should change your fluids.

It's not that simple now is it? It's not also about a few bucks for some new fluids. To me, it's a matter of if there will be any added benefits. If the fluids that the factory put in is doing an adequate job of what it's supposed to do, then why would I want to throw good money at new fluids? I have neither the time or the inclination to spend on something that will not add any new benefits so let's just leave it at that.

[Marrk]

Originally Posted by zoomzoomers

It's not that simple now is it? It's not also about a few bucks for some new fluids. To me, it's a matter of if there will be any added benefits. If the fluids that the factory put in is doing an adequate job of what it's supposed to do, then why would I want to throw good money at new fluids? I have neither the time or the inclination to spend on something that will not add any new benefits so let's just leave it at that.

Man, this is going in circles. The factory fluids are doing an adequate job until they wear out. The additives in oils do most of the work. The additives have a limited lifespan. Then, you need to change the oil.

With all due respect, does that answer your question? Or will you now ask me if it's okay to change the oil after 100k miles? (It's not okay.)

[gmookher]

its pretty simple

1.drain out the break in fluids full of metal

2.refill with oe or better clean fluid

3. simple

pentosin- using it is my cup of tea-ymmv see post #71

[prise]

Interesting discussion and one that reminds me of a similar notchy and slow 1st to 2nd shift I had with a MY99 WRX when it was cold. The car only had 5000 km on it at the time so the dealer put some 'magic' full synthetic light weight oil which did solve the shift, but when the weather warmed, the 3rd to 4th shift started to 'catch'.

The oil was changed back to factory fill at the next service as the next dealer said it didn't meet the viscosity spec and could cause damage to the synchros (they were right). Interestingly after this was done, the gearbox had loosened up sufficiently that the shift was no longer a problem. After about 90,000 km and outside warranty the 3rd to 4th synchro started catching again and needed to be replaced. Fortunately I had a record of the first dealers incorrect oil fill so Subaru paid for the whole repair.

For those of you with a notchy/tight shift, you might want to give the gearbox a chance to loosen up before experimenting with different oils.

[Esoteric]

The data we are collecting here is on its way to Blackstone. Thats why its not posted, I should have been more clear. Obviously, its hard data we all want

Based on what I do have, and what is known about the Aisin, these late model gearboxes from them tend to like a thiner oil. Like the S2k, the thin Honda MTF or a synthetic with similar properties is popular. Honda MTF is not available in a synthetic formula to my knowledge, so it does not interest me.
For the sake of only speaking to the way the shifting feels: Due to the unique properties of synthetics, that they flow better when cold, they tend to shift better over a wider range of temps.

Fluid Tested
I selected some for my personal test car, and a close friend these have been:
-BG Syncroshift II
-Redline's newer product MT-85

MT-90 is not going to be an ideal match for this car, however I bet it does feel better than the OE fill.
The OE stuff feels very poor in this gear box (IN SOME cars, not all, some I have driven feel perfectly fine, but 50% don't)
The factory oil its nothing special you can tell: Toyota/Subaru definetaly did not splurge on the factory fill, this is a 25k car after all. I will be sending a UOA to Blackstone on OE gear oil when I get some from the next stock car that comes in.

Fluid like MT-90 is going to be unpleasant feeling in colder weather next to something a bit thinner. Just as it does in the BMWs that like a thin gear oil or auto trans fluid... Pentosin / Redline MTL / ATF, etc.
Keep in mind, all these types of fluids are essentially a 10w-30 in "Motor oil weight" and 75w-80/85 in "Gear oil weight" (a lot of people don't know, because its not taught, that gear oil and Motor oil are not on the same scale). Not a thicker 75w-90.
These modern oils are thin, and I bellive that is to say that Aisin is doing a good job of matching their gearboxes to the modern oils. Now Subaru/ Toyota just need to reconsider the factory fill to a supplier something like Eneos (thats Honda MTF) and could see even more happy customers.

MT-85 in testing
This has been very very good so far. On days under 50F (its been in the 40s here after the hurricane) I get a little hesitation going into second, I skip into 3rd for the first 60 seconds of driving on my way to work. After that, the gear oil warms up, and 2nd gear is totally smooth for the rest of the day.
From 50F-105F ambient. Everything is totally dialed and smooth at all times, all my local customers have switched to MT-85 who have driven my car and felt the difference.
I also have the Perrin shift bushing, a worth while improvement as well.

BG SS II
Is in my good friends car and he hasn't tracked, but reports extremely smooth shifting under all conditions. I concur, its amazing and his car shifts buttery smooth. He has close to 10k on his car yet it has always seemed to shift very smoothly, so he wasn't one that had many "grinds" to begin with.


Future tests
Comming up, I would like to try Royal Purple Syncromax and Possibly AMSoil as well. RP has performed very well for me in the past, and is widely available at the retail level for most of you guys, so i'm looking forward to trying that.

Good reading
A short but direct page about gear oil: www.lubrizol.com "AutomotiveGearOil"

The best oil page on the net, specifics about viscocity: www.bobistheoilguy.com viscosity explained

[roddy]

You are right... The MT-90 did feel better than the factory fill (much better actually), but at temperatures approaching the freezing point, shifts started to degrade somewhat. 40 degrees F is about as warm as it is going to get here for the next few months, so that wasn't going to cut it as a winter fluid.
I drained the transmission this weekend and filled it with Pentosin (75W80). Judging by the resistance of my hand pump, it is noticeably thinner than the MT-90, but not as thin as Redline's MTL (70W80). When pushing it through the pump, it feels very similar in thickness to Honda's revised MTL. I'll post up my thoughts on the Pentosin after I get some miles on the car.

[gmookher]

how many have actually ever rebuilt a manual tranny here in this thread? LOL.

Its funny, just cause folks arent familiar with the brand or comfy with the price theres post after post doubting it will work..why, what will it do? its a gl4 so corrosion not a concern. the stuff is loaded with EP and wear additives, galore.

motor oils do not have the correct ep additives and shouldnt be confused cause it flows the same
can it be done? yup. would I track my car like that? never

guys, its JUST another 75w-80 oil.

no one has a 'factory fill p/n' last I checked anyways.

I've been tracking the snot outta my car, and you can bet my next fill will be with the same stuff, prolly at around 20k miles.
The revised Honda MTF is very similar in Kinematic & VI and I bet it would work as well too. Just japanese fluid instead of german.
it matches up to the pentosin very nicely
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1971039
note the cold flow rate at the bottom

anyone who wanna test drive mine youre welcome to...
warmed up, you cant tell, 1st thing in the am, its night and day
again, see posts #71 & #73

I dont work for Pentosin, and really dont care if you use it or honda mtf or wait for stock. or live with notchy 2nd. all you.

BG syncroshift would not find its way into my tranny, tho its specs are not far off from pentosin. I pass on the BG, myself. in your Ford yes. Aisin, no.
the MT-85 is not the right oil either IMHO search for that magic cocktail http://www.grimmspeed.com/catalog/pr...products_id=76
MT-90 is all wrong, get it outta there


I no longer skip gears when cold. ymmv
the bushings got nothing to do with your syncro spinning up to speed...
I have enough pentosin in the garage to do the 335i, m3, 280zx and BRZ. yes. yup. Pentosin is what comes factory in those BMWs and its been great in my Nissan manual tranny, and so far, the only two oils I approve are the Pentosin, and the Honda MTF

I dont see more posts adding doubt heloping this thread. you got something that works share its chemistry.
I want a cold flow in the 7.x range.
hot, they all work the same
the problem er, symptom, is a notchy 2nd gear.
Mines cured

Roddy, give it a good day of use before you report back.
My goal has been simple, eliminate or reduce the 2nd gear notchyness without any compromise in shear film or VI. Why are you all looking for 'something else'. the honda is dino based.
If you all find a better fluid, post it here

so far I been flowing this and havent seen anything but dice rolls
mine not a dice roll by any means
see post#1..
done.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by gmookher

how many have actually ever rebuilt a manual tranny here in this thread? LOL.

More than I would like to and I have another do to this winter to swap out the LSD. Darn FWD, have gut the tranny just to swap LSD's!

Originally Posted by gmookher

BG syncroshift would not find its way into my tranny, tho its specs are not far off from pentosin. I pass on the BG, myself. in your Ford yes. Aisin, no.

I know you keep saying this but I find the Pennzoil Synchromesh (which is often considered the same as the BG but I'm not sure it is) is terrific. I never ever got a crunch in my AP1 transmission (when I had it) and I've been racing wit hit for 3 years now. I've never tried the BG stuff so I'm not sure exactly where the disconnect is.

When I changed the OEM fluid I did notice it looked and smelt identical to the Honda MTF...identical, and that's a fluid I have lots of familiarity with. I wouldn't be surprised if the Honda MTF and the Toyota/Subaru fluid.

I don't have the motivation or time but when Scion/Subaru gets their magic Tranny fluid stateside I'd like to send it and Honda MTF to a lab and compare them back to back. I got $5 says they're the same or damn near it.

[gmookher]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I don't have the motivation or time but when Scion/Subaru gets their magic Tranny fluid stateside I'd like to send it and Honda MTF to a lab and compare them back to back. I got $5 says they're the same or damn near it.

I am betting another $5 your 100% correct...
1-I will still only dispense Pentosin as my recommended 100% synth fluid, its what i have proven successfully in my own tranny-admittedly my 1st Aisin
2-afaik hunduh mtf is dino blend! nay, not in my track car...
3-see the chart and refer back to post#1-and you will see why I prefer pento to pennzoil for THIS application, no where am I saying the Pennzoils isnt good, its mad respected in the M community...

I hope Roddy post back soon!

remember guys, this post was for your benefit, its your option and my recommendation
I happen to like it and as several others have voiced, they do too, and they seem to outnumber folks who were not happy or perhaps approached it with too high an expectation

[mattles]

Originally Posted by gmookher

IMHO search for that magic cocktail http://www.grimmspeed.com/catalog/pr...products_id=76

Using the subaru magic cocktail is likely unnecessary since this car doesnt use a dogshit subaru transmission. Its completely different from any transmission ever used in an AWD subaru due to the drivetrain layout.

Anything that worked well for S15s, S2000s, and certain Miatas should be wonderful in this car, of those applications Pentosin is one of the front runners, definitely.

[gmookher]

Originally Posted by mattles

Anything that worked well for S15s, S2000s, and certain Miatas should be wonderful in this car, of those applications Pentosin is one of the front runners, definitely.

Right I NEVER suggested using their dogshit cocktail, just citing an example...

have you tried it-the Pentosin? Your local to me, we should see how your tranny feels vs mine, tho I see much colder temps up here at 4500 feet than you see in the valley

[rice_classic]

Gem,
Have you tried the Torco MTF or RTF yet?