The GT86/BRZ/FR-S has taught me a lot

[jarviz]

Originally Posted by jm1681

This weekend, while leading a convoy to breakfast (Me in my FR-S, a friend behind me in his BRZ, and another friend behind him in a Benz), my friend's BRZ bit him and the results were not pretty.

Just a few weeks before that, I turned the traction control off in the FR-S for the first time, and coming around a corner at a speed I truly thought was reasonable, the back came around and I narrowly avoided an accident with another car.

How fast were you going? and what was the speed limit on that bend? I'm still trying to figure out how people get the back to break traction so easily?

Originally Posted by ST185RC

The 86 is very mild mannered up to it's limits. All cars regardless of drivetrain will bite if you drive like an asshat. Ever see front wheel drive civics lose it with less than 130 horsepower with a dinky little D16? here you go:

OP, just be glad you're not driving a 90's porsche 911 with a rear engine, rearwheel drive with no traction control and lead weights in the front for balance.

That would have been a nice initiation for a drift... if the road was going left.

[Iixii]

Originally Posted by jm1681

This weekend, while leading a convoy to breakfast (Me in my FR-S, a friend behind me in his BRZ, and another friend behind him in a Benz), my friend's BRZ bit him and the results were not pretty.

Just a few weeks before that, I turned the traction control off in the FR-S for the first time, and coming around a corner at a speed I truly thought was reasonable, the back came around and I narrowly avoided an accident with another car.

I openly admit, I don't have a lot (Read: Any) of experience with RWD (Neither did my friend), but I've always been a very cautious driver on the street. The FR-S, even with none of the aids disabled, and barely pushing at all has taught me things about driving dynamics, none of my other cars ever gave me a glimpse of. It has never failed to do anything besides bring a smile to my face, but, these cars DO bite.

For all their predictability and finesse, if you go in balls deep without the knowledge, and without the skill, and think that the amazing car is going to save you, you're just plain wrong. I'm not trying to be preachy, but I know a lot of us came from platforms other than RWD, platforms where losing control in a big way is less of an issue.

I love my FR-S. It's made me happy and made me smile more times in 3 months than any car has since I've been driving. That being said, I'm absolutely terrified of my car, and will likely never own another RWD car; I'm just not that intense, and I'm far too big a coward. I've had my little bouts of fun with it up until this weekend, but even just the few minutes I've driven it since watching my friend lose it, I've dialed myself back a LOT.

I'm treating this thing with the utmost of respect from now on, and even once she tells me how hard she likes it, I'm still going to be just a bit more gentle.

I've read similar things in motorcycle forums. Even the 250cc Ninja has to be respected.

[BuBlake]

Originally Posted by jm1681

Wow, too many people to respond to, but I guess the first thing to say is I've been auto-xing for 7 years. I know a bit about enthusiatic driving. Still, it's always been in a car that I knew wouldn't bite me, at least not like the FR-S.

It's my first RWD, and in total honesty, for the type of driver I am, it's the wrong car. I love it, it's just going to be a hefty learning curve. Likely one that I'll never complete.

You'll get used to it and love it. I absolutely cannot stand fwd cars after driving rwd my whole life. The understeer and lack of the ability to get the tail out is just mind numbingly boring to me, but I have to admit it that I have enjoyed feeling the front wheels panicking for traction under me in my mom's Ford Edge. Driving a fwd car has more feeling in that respect.

[ashtray]

Originally Posted by Iixii

I've read similar things in motorcycle forums. Even the 250cc Ninja has to be respected.

I was thinking the same thing. People who have been riding bikes for years and years may be able to go out and handle a high powered sport bike - but for someone who has never riden, they can be easily "bitten" by even a 250cc if they don't respect it.

The FRS is very "easy" to control - compared to other vehicles that can hand you your butt in a split second. It doesn't mean you can ignore that it is RWD, or that it will behave anything like fwd cars. In a fwd car, lose a little traction, just ease off the gas and everything is fine. In rwd, that back end starts to move - you gotta know what you're doing. If you do, it's an easy car to control. If you don't, you'll get bitten.

My friend used to buy a new Vette every 18 month (family GM plan). He'd let me drive them all the time. The C5 with sport suspension - not much feedback before that back end let go. His C6 without the sport package, I found it VERY communicative, and easy to modulate the rear end slip with throttle input. (easy to drift). He ended up spinning out and wrecking one of his C6's. Even though he had experience with RWD performance cars, he didn't have much experience controlling them at their handling limits.

So - learn how to drive a RWD car, what the limits of the car feel like (the transition in the FRS is great - you get some warnings as you approach the limits), and what actions you should (and should NOT) do when reaching those limits.

I'm not just referring to enthusiastic drives - I'm talking about rain, or snow, or emergency lane changes (deer jumping out in front of you, etc). Snow is great for learning (ice, not so much) - bc you can do everything at very low speeds.

[SpeedR]

Originally Posted by BuBlake

Much agreed. Or, in other words, it's easier to powerslide(break the rear wheels loose) than to drift(Break all four wheels loose).

what??? drifting is breaking all 4 loose???

[CaptainSlow]

No. Drifting is controlled powerslide. Crashing is uncontrolled powerslide.

[zenki_levin]

Originally Posted by BuBlake

Much agreed. Or, in other words, it's easier to powerslide(break the rear wheels loose) than to drift(Break all four wheels loose).

For drifting you still need your front wheels to grip, so it isn't exactly breaking loose all 4 wheels.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by dem00n

I find these cars do bite back more so then other RWD cars, even more then cars with almost triple the horsepower. But thats no excuse not to buy a other RWD car, i love RWD. You just gotta go to a track and learn, simple as that.

I doubt that. This isn't a 240SX that will try to kill you every time you turn...it's people's unfamiliarity with RWD that's making it seem that way. The car bites back, but you are obviously doing something to agitate it. Driving without VSC/TCS on makes this a completely different car.

[BuBlake]

Originally Posted by SpeedR

what??? drifting is breaking all 4 loose???

Yes, sliding sideways and breaking all four loose. The front still steers the car, obviously, but you can straighten the wheels and the car will not always follow that path, meaning they broke loose.

A powerslide is more-so just the rear sliding out under throttle, front wheels still gripping near 100%, which is why I think it's called a "power" slide.

I don't know, really, just my definitions.

[Ingen]

Originally Posted by jarviz

How fast were you going? and what was the speed limit on that bend? I'm still trying to figure out how people get the back to break traction so easily?

Agreed. As a guy who spent some time with everything turned off in a wet parking lot, I really don't know how people are ACCIDENTALLY breaking loose with this car. I have the newer bridgestone tires but I can't imagine they are THAT much better than the primacy.

There's no reason to have the TC off on the street. But even if you do... how are people crashing this car? Mine grips so hard I wonder sometimes how it doesn't just roll.

[ABQautoxer]

Originally Posted by jm1681

Wow, too many people to respond to, but I guess the first thing to say is I've been auto-xing for 7 years. I know a bit about enthusiatic driving. Still, it's always been in a car that I knew wouldn't bite me, at least not like the FR-S.

It's my first RWD, and in total honesty, for the type of driver I am, it's the wrong car. I love it, it's just going to be a hefty learning curve. Likely one that I'll never complete.

Go get better tires and change the alignment and front sway bar. It's a completely different car just after the tires and alignment and then a fast car with the sway bar. Do this before you move on. If after that you still don't like it, it's not like you didn't make the effort. If you've been autocrossing that long you've seen every new mini and miata driver spin their car at some point even at low speeds and it takes some setup changes to make it less likely to bite you. To further qualify what I said, this is the first car I've ever had delivered with zero rear toe which makes for a pretty loose experience. Just dialing in some toe-in, 1/8" for someone like you maybe, and like I said it will change your opinion.

[Nezz]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

I doubt that. This isn't a 240SX that will try to kill you every time you turn...it's people's unfamiliarity with RWD that's making it seem that way. The car bites back, but you are obviously doing something to agitate it. Driving without VSC/TCS on makes this a completely different car.
___________

Haha, totally. My S13 will happily eat you if you drop it into a corner quickly without being ready. Lock up the brakes? It'll kill you. Throw it in? It'll kill you. Try hard to snap it loose mid corner? It'll kill you. The 86 is such a kitten next to it-- Tighten everything up underneath a car renowned for subtle understeer and you'll get a lot better mid-corner pivot but you -need- to be on your toes...

If the 86 is scaring you off it's because you dived in head first before you even knew the car! Get a set of X-tyres (your choice, just make 'em sticky!) on some lightweight rims (Kosei? Work Emotion? Watanabe?) and go figure out how to balance it mid corner doing what you already do!

I still reckon you should drive it with the aids on until you figure out how it talks to you-- I grew up in a mix of FWD and RWD and RWD is definitely easier to manipulate mid corner, FWD is harder to get unstuck but a lot less rewarding in the end for me. The Silvia will go "Hey." and then stab you in the face. The 86 spends a lot of time warning you before it lets go by comparison.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by jm1681

....and will likely never own another RWD car; I'm just not that intense, and I'm far too big a coward....

Unlike a lot of people on this forum, I grew up on nothing but RWD cars. My first car was a Mustang GT. Lots of power/torque on a RWD car with a light rear end. So I learned early on how to handle RWD.

I can see why guys who come from FWD might be a little concerned with RWD handling characteristics, but still, it's easier than ever to drive a RWD car with all the electronic nannies there to protect you. I think one of the issues with these cars is the OEM tires. They aren't exactly confidence-inspiring. Some have suggested that the OEM tires were used for driving enjoyment (like getting the tail to slide out easily) and that may be true, but for guys like you who don't have a lot of RWD experience, I can see how it might make you a little apprehensive.

Either way, don't give up on RWD cars. Once you learn how to handle them, nothing is more fun.

[brz7400]

it's probably overdriving on the weak stock tires, especially if autocrossed for 7 years, you are probably just accustomed to having grippy tires and maybe applying too much power earlier out of turns in fwd/awd cars?

i have less than 20 autocross experience, but it's always been in rwd cars.
been to 3? autocrosses with the brz and spun 2 times so far when overdriven (aids off).

since the frs is more tail happy, probably spookier on the street if you turn off aids.
i leave the aids on for street driving, although the buzzing can be more of a surprise at times, lol.

in the meantime, this car teaches how to drive smoother even around street corner speeds.
- if i am smooth entering and loading the tires, it provides good traction and no intrusion.
- if i am not so smooth, active handling will buzz to let me know.

i may use sport mode for street or mountain driving when the roads allow and i am alert enough to be focused on driving.
but really, i don't want to be driving too much harder than what tires will allow without aids on the street anyway.
street = 8/10. autocross = 10/10.