Anybody here getting that greasy "$27k" feeling?

[Aki]

Originally Posted by bofa

Not sure if this was directed toward me or not, but yes, I've bought two 350Zs (2006 base and 2008 enthusiast). I don't think anyone realistically is using it as any sort of metric. I most recently mentioned the Z referring to the argument of how prices are inflating.

Oh not directing it at anybody in particular, just how some still want/expect this to be turbo, make 300hp, and beat the 370Z.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Performance car, yes. Sports car, no.

Performance and sporting are not interchangeable. The Miata is not a performance car, but it has been the definitive sports car since 1989. The STI started as a crappy econobox sedan and was built-up so it actually went forward and turned a bit, albeit with minimal driver interaction. As such, it's not a sports car. Can you wrap your head around that?

They are both the same, any sport compact car whether turbo, n/a fwd, rwd, awd. Anything in the 17-25k region that's geared towards the tuning scene is in the same boat, no matter how you want to cut it.

I'm not going to feed into the STI debate, so I'll ignore that. STI is not like TRD or Nismo is in the US and the Impreza platform is more of a sports car then you think all the way back to the GC. Which was made so they can't compete in rally after using the 1st gen Legacy. That is all I'll say.

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Why not? What's the problem? What other low-production FR sports cars are out there for $25k besides the Miata? If Toyoda-san is out there on the 'ring giving the LF-A a tough time in the corners, what's stopping Toyota from marketing the FR-S as a baby LF-A and charging $30k or more?

Toyoda-san is selling his car first and foremost, to have this thing along side the LFA or to even mention the LFA with it is hyping it up and crazy. This car cannot hang with the LFA in the corners, as the LFA can power thru corners with ease.

Consumers, economy, the fact there is nothing majorly impressive commanding over $19k on the car, so $23k is already a mark up?

If they are greedy this car is not going to do well, they need to start at $21k and add things thru-out the life span and gradually increase ending at $24k, possibly due to interior, suspension, drivetrain, ecu refinements and other tweaks/features added with each release. They will sell a lot and make a lot this way versus over pricing because of initial buzz, especially with a first run car that will have issues no doubt. You don't want to kill off your repeat customers.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by Aki

Well, market viability

Exactly! My $30k baby LF-A question was strictly hypothetical and definitely shows the upper limit of value at least on this forum. It would take massively convincing marketing to push a $30k value upon the FT86 at this point, when all along they've been touting the similarity with the affordable AE86 [as tranzformer rightly pointed out]


Here's the counterpoint: sports cars in general do not sell in big numbers in the USA. In order to gain market share, they must water down and market the appearance of sport-derived fun with perceived reliability and practicality for a larger [read: less hardcore]. You see very few Miatas, Corvettes, Caymans, and 370Zs driving around on snow tires in the winter. This isn't because they're poor performers in snow per se, it's that most people A) aren't hardcore enough to really want them to make it happen year-round, because B) they're brainwashed into thinking big SUV or AWD cars are the only ones that will even move in winter. This propagation of ignorance [at least in the USA] is a big reason sports cars remain perceived as inherently impractical, despite them rarely being less practical than most people actually need.

So, back to the question of price. There is only one other actual sports car on the market that starts at $23k, the Miata. Will Toyota be able to pull off a brand new car with more ratios, what's sounding like a custom Yamaha-tuned engine, probably larger wheels, and an interior from 2012 [not 2006 like the Miata] for the same price? I think it's safe to assume most of us want to say "YES!", but how do you think it'll actually happen? No convertible saves money, shared development and platform production with Subaru saves money. What about parts bin interior bits, suspension parts?

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

They are both the same, any sport compact car whether turbo, n/a fwd, rwd, awd. Anything in the 17-25k region that's geared towards the tuning scene is in the same boat, no matter how you want to cut it.

So what you're saying is: you can't understand the difference because you're hung up on statistics.

Sports Car = crafted for fun for the driver
Performance Car = purchased to prove to everyone else it's quick

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Aki

Oh not directing it at anybody in particular, just how some still want/expect this to be turbo, make 300hp, and beat the 370Z.

That is exaggerated. If someone happened to mention turbo, it's more so because the $25k or $27k price tag better have it.

First we prefer minimally a DI engine with twin scroll turbo model even if it produces only 200hp, because for $1200 you can add another 50whp to the mix reliably and effortlessly. My stock 1.6 twin scroll turbo car puts down more torque and power than this car will and weighs ~2600lbs stock without killing my ears and the planet(decatting). So lets not get into a turbo debate, stay on course with topic at hand.

[bofa]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

So lets not get into a turbo debate, stay on course with topic at hand.

I think PAIT has been hacked!!

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

So, back to the question of price. There is only one other actual sports car on the market that starts at $23k, the Miata. Will Toyota be able to pull off a brand new car with more ratios, what's sounding like a custom Yamaha-tuned engine, probably larger wheels, and an interior from 2012 [not 2006 like the Miata] for the same price? I think it's safe to assume most of us want to say "YES!", but how do you think it'll actually happen? No convertible saves money, shared development and platform production with Subaru saves money. What about parts bin interior bits, suspension parts?

Like you mentioned above, the thing this car has going for it is that it was a partnership project with Subaru. So they both split R&D costs 50/50 (or whatever it ends up being). That helps a lot. If you believe SOA blog on NASIOC, this project wouldn't have taken off the ground if Subaru and Toyota didn't partner together on it. The other thing that helps is Toyota and Subaru could theoretically use the FT86/216a platform to spin off other vehicles. Could Lexus use it for a sporty coupe/sedan? Maybe. Could Toyota use it to bring back something like a MR2? Maybe. Could Subaru use to for the WRX/STI? Maybe. I think the two companies were smart in coming together to limit the amount each would need to shell out to design a new car.

[r4m3n]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

I'm sorry there are some thing I can't hold back but anyone paying over $23k base for this car is retarded. I have the finances, I can buy one the first day it hits the floor but there is no way I can mentally pay over 22k for this car.

Nothing justifies this price.

The Scion iQ is $16K. BASE. Pay $6K more to move up to the FR-S? Ain't gonna happen.

Realistically, I see the FR-S priced at $25k starting.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

It would take massively convincing marketing to push a $30k value upon the FT86 at this point.

Brainwashing doesn't work on smart people. Got to explain, show on paper and real world performance in stock form. As well competition on the show room from other manufacturers floor to warrant price.

Again $17-25k sports compact cars are all rolled up into one, to a consumer and enthusiast. I won't bend to TMC rules, they'll have to bend to our/market rules.

Originally Posted by Ryephile

So, back to the question of price. There is only one other actual sports car on the market that starts at $23k, the Miata....

No broaden your selection there are other fun cars out there for the 17-25k range. Overlook AWD, FWD, and size.. fun is fun and you can aruge the performance of the others either.

Originally Posted by Ryephile

or the same price? I think it's safe to assume most of us want to say "YES!", but how do you think it'll actually happen? No convertible saves money, shared development and platform production with Subaru saves money. What about parts bin interior bits, suspension parts?

Convertibles are premium, the reason why it cost $23k, and the fact of motorsport backed, other features, and already has a name.. tried and true. You take those things away from the Miata you got a $20k car, considering it's shared with the RX8. I'm not even trolling, I'm dead serious.

Another example, take the Genesis base coupe minus turbo, you got a FRS with more metal $17k, reduce the size to FT size which saves money but replace with aluminum parts thru-out adding money and you're back at $17k, add a yamaha head and DI you're at lets say 19k. The price of R&D is already factored into the design of the car itself. If Hyundai made a strong contender for the FRS it would be priced 18-19k and have a 1.6 turbo AND it would outsell the FRS.

[r4m3n]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

We should do a poll about who is going to buy this car the first 6 months and who is just blowing smoke. Because some of these pipe dreamers are asking and wanting this car to be a certain way but they probably can't afford because they are a)in debt b) bad credit c)not enough credit d)low income e)unemployed f) mid income with debt. Not saying all but I pretty sure a lot fall into this car seeing as the target audience is 17-25. Well I'm not any of those or age for that matter, I can very well order this car and pick it up once it hits the port, just like that.

Also who wants to be apart of an aftermarket where the other owners will pay almost anything for parts, if they will pay almost anything for a car like this. It's a trickle down effect, I must be the cheapest well off consumer.

Now take $27.4k OTD and put that into 4-6% APR by 72months I hope you guys can afford a 400+/month payment + 140+/mo in insurance + 300+/mo gas. That's $840+ a month for this car can you guys realistically do that?

Let's do a poll on $840+ a month and also like previously mentioned who is buying in the first 6 months.

It was never stated that the target audience is 17-25. If anything, automakers always skew higher to capture a broader audience when pitching to upper management. More like 24-36 crowd.

Your numbers assume no downpayment and if you're going to do a 72mo finance with nothing down, you probably shouldn't be buying a car over $20k in the first place.

I plan on buying day 1.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by bofa

I think PAIT has been hacked!!

I want to stay on topic at hand as much as possible because it's a very important one. One that TMC needs to see and thoroughly look at from all perspectives and ideas, before dropping a price. The price can very well kill the car to the point of not even considering it.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by r4m3n

It was never stated that the target audience is 17-25. If anything, automakers always skew higher to capture a broader audience when pitching to upper management. More like 24-36 crowd.

Your numbers assume no downpayment and if you're going to do a 72mo finance with nothing down, you probably shouldn't be buying a car over $20k in the first place.

I plan on buying day 1.

I fall into the higher end of the crowd

Even if you dropped $3k on this, it's not going to save you a lot in payments, you'd be over $24k OTD, 5k down is still over 20s. I'm speaking from salesman experience as a part-time Honda employee ages ago.

If you like the car as is, right now and will be paying $27+k OTD then I'm going to hold you to that.

[bofa]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

I want to stay on topic at hand as much as possible because it's a very important one. One that TMC needs to see and thoroughly look at from all perspectives and ideas, before dropping a price. The price can very well kill the car to the point of not even considering it.

Yup. If they overprice it, they are doomed. I know people get a little tense about what to cross-shop, but me personally I'm considering a WRX, Mazdaspeed3, and the FT (or its Subie equivalent). If they price it above those they are probably screwed. I'd throw a Jetta GLI in the mix too if they decided to offer them again... or a Scirroco if vw would bring it over.

[enc0re]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

How much more would you have to pay for a comparably equipped 1er? BM nickel and dime you for everything, You are kidding yourself, and might as well just get a 1er if that's your prerogative.

Kidding myself about what? Of course a BMW is more expensive. It's nicer too. I'm perfectly capable of comparing two products at two different price points to decide if the extra $ is worth the extra 'nice.'

At close to $20K I'd keep the money and enjoy the FR-S. Probably. Of course, I have to check it out in person first.