Time to put away the BRZ?

[Skyhound]

Just get snow tires on steelies and you'll be fine. It won't look as nice, but no car looks nice after a snow storm. xD

[chanomatik]

Whoring out, but also on-topic!!!



Say goodbye to your retinas, scumbags! Mwahahahahaha!!!!!

[Umbie]

^ LOL, hideous but effective.

Just got my Legacy GT re-insured for the winter! BRZ will be summoned to the garage shortly.

[WRXGuy1]

What's the big deal with mounting 17" snow tires on the stock wheels? That's what I'm doing.

[chanomatik]

Money. I got the steelies with studded Hankook iPikes for $280 (I'm sure you can tell). Next paycheck I'm getting Sparco RTT524's 18x8 +48, then Blizzak WS70's 235/40R18. In between I'll be getting Clear Bra, so not sure how quickly I'll get the new snow tires, but they're coming. The steelies are VERY temporary.

[blu_]

Originally Posted by WRXGuy1

What's the big deal with mounting 17" snow tires on the stock wheels? That's what I'm doing.

That's what I am doing as well. Smaller wheels will just be a lot cheaper to get tires for and swapping wheels will keep your stock rims looking nicer.

[blu_]

Originally Posted by Erik @ GBox

Well I would have to say that given the hanging fastball over the middle of the plate you through in asking this question, the replies have been far better then I would have expected.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with displaying a bit of caution with regards to what your New and First RWD car is going to be like in rain and snow. Given that you do have another option, why not be cautious?

With that said though, I would expect the BRZ to be far better than say my 944 was. It was certainly okay to drive in the rain and snow, but not exactly something that would want to do all the time. The traction control in the Subaru is fantastic for someone who is worried about these conditions and should serve you quite well as you get used to your new car.

I would recommend short trips at first and a bit of playing around so that you can find the good and bad in your handling in a safe environment. Give yourself some extra space and seat time and I am sure you will be fine.

Erik

At least for me This isnt my first rwd car but ive driven awd subarus for 3 years as have a lot of members and realize the ops concern. It's just going to take some getting used to not being as aggressive in bad weather.

[exmayol]

I thought a bunch of people bragging about ability to drive manual is annoying but then I came to this thread and saw rain masters!

[ashtray]

Originally Posted by overlookedx

This was actually a concern for me too, as my WRX feels so planted in the rain and this will be my first RWD car. Good to know I have nothing to worry about (plus the fact it barely rains here).

My WRX is my rainy day winter beater. It's great to drive in the rain. Nail the gas, and it just goes. No wheel spin. No TC light flashing. It just goes.

I won't be driving my BRZ in the rain, on purpose. I'm sure it's fine, and I've driven plenty of RWD cars in the rain and snow - but AWD does spoil you. Plus, it's the OTHER drivers you gotta worry about more in the rain, so I like the idea of my BRZ stationed safely garaged.

[ashtray]

Btw - remember, in a skid, steer in the direction you want to go! This works for all skids - understeer, oversteer, and 4wheel drifts.

Understeer (most likely in fwd) - you're turning the wheel but the car isn't turning as much as you need. Turn MORE (and slow down) in the same direction.

Oversteer (most likely in RWD) - you're turning the wheel and the car turns more than you wanted. Turn the wheel back the other way.

4wheel drift (more common in some AWD) - the car is at the proper angle for the turn, but is losing traction and sliding through it. Just keep the wheel where you have it, and yell "wheeeee!". Lifting off the gas usually brings the car back under control quickly.


So, in the rain - you may enter a turn a little too fast, not get that initial bite and understeer towards the outside of the turn. That ok. Less gas, and a little more steering in the same direction you were turning. Just point those wheels where you want the car to go.

Ok, now the front bites but you've lifted a bit off the gas, weight shifts forwards, and now the rears lose traction - again heading for the outside of the turn. This time you counter steer (turn the wheel in the opposite direction). But you're still pointing the wheels where you want to go.

In a bad moment, you could start with understeer, correct for it and experience oversteer,
correct for that but lift too much and get snap oversteer in the opposite direction (ie over correct), and need to turn the wheel back the other way. But no matter which way that back end is sliding, just keep pointing the front tires to where you want to go.

And for the inexperienced, this all happens FAST. You could understeer, then oversteer, the over correct, then turn it back in all in one or two seconds. The smoother you go, the better, but that doesnt mean to react slowly. Kinda tricky to explain.

Fwd drivers who understeer usually just need to give it less gas and do nothing else and the car regains control. RWD takes a little more work.

(on the "fun scale", RWD slides are the best - right there at near full opposite lock where you steer the car with your throttle inputs. AWD drifts are fun too. Again, steering how tight or wide you want to go by your throttle inputs but after initial turn in, your steering wheel is straight. Fwd slides just suck - that's when you pull the hand brake to initiate an oversteer and then you're steering the car with the rear brakes.)

[RaceR]

My reason to buy a GT86/BRZ is because of wet conditions and snow. So much fun!
If if was dry and tons of grip all the dime I would not bother with a car that was fun to drive on and above the limit.

Buy some proper winter tires, and start by learning car control on empty parking lot in snowy conditions...

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by ashtray

Btw - remember, in a skid, steer in the direction you want to go! This works for all skids - understeer, oversteer, and 4wheel drifts.

Understeer (most likely in fwd) - you're turning the wheel but the car isn't turning as much as you need. Turn MORE (and slow down) in the same direction.

Uhmm no. If you are already exceeding the amount of traction that the front tires have, turning more will just continue the slide until the tires scrub off enough speed to regain traction.

The proper thing to do with understeer is to REDUCE steering angle, get traction, slow down, then increase steering angle to complete the turn.

[ashtray]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Uhmm no. If you are already exceeding the amount of traction that the front tires have, turning more will just continue the slide until the tires scrub off enough speed to regain traction.

The proper thing to do with understeer is to REDUCE steering angle, get traction, slow down, then increase steering angle to complete the turn.

On a wide track, yes, that would work better. On a single lane road where you're either heading for the shoulder or into oncoming traffic, I'd turn more and lift. At extreme situations even a quick jab at the brakes if you have ABS.

While the idea is to regain traction, and your method certainly would do that quickest - driving straight off the road with full traction is less desirable than skidding through a turn and keeping it on the road.

Online (Forza) racing, in fwd if you start to understeer on the track, you can usually just lift a bit until you scrub off enough speed to regain traction.

As you leave the racing line (or your lane on the street) during understeer, the amount you have to turn to get back increases anyways - so you'll have to increase the amount you turn the wheel at some point. The point being though that you keep turning in the same direction as before. Where-as in oversteer you turn the wheel in the opposite direction.

It almost comes naturally once you have a little wheel time in fwd and RWD, but for people with 100% experience in one type of layout, the reaction needed may be foreign. (or not realize just how quick that back end can swing out 90 degrees! It's tougher to understeer 90 degrees in a 45 degree turn.)

[Dave-ROR]

Oh I didn't realize we were talking forza dynamics.

In reality, if you've exceeded traction turning more simply won't help (well not efficiently, sure it will cause more tire scrub which will slow the car until traction is regained). Turning more will NOT make it more likely to regain traction in less space than doing it correctly. Lift if you want (which depending on car setup can cause a spin instead, try that in my ITR for example and you won't have to worry about understeer anymore). Otherwise, the best, quickest and safest method is a quick reduction in steering angle, slow down, then add steering back in - assuming it's badly understeering. If it's just a slight understeer, gently easing off the throttle will often correct it by itself. If you are close enough to go off road or hit a curb you are certainly going to do that anyways if you use the turn more and understeer more method you are suggesting to people. Yes, after slowing down you will have to increase steering angle again, the difference is that you are now within the traction circle - instead of outside of it.

This is one of the first things taught at autocross schools because the turn more and slide more method is so common with novice autocrossers.

You are correct that with experience the actions taken become natural, unfortunately that doesn't mean the CORRECT actions are what becomes natural. One of our co drivers has never had to correct his bad habits so once we switched to a different setup which requires more proper inputs, he has wrecked the race car more than once...