Motor Trend, August issue.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by madfast

the civic si is basically a regular civic with a k series motor. a version of the motor that came out in the 2002 rsx type s. not THAT much has changed in this decade old motor. you can see how honda sells it so cheap. they didnt have to do much to make the car exist.

with the FT you're dealing with a new or heavily revised chassis of some sort, with a new or heavily revised engine, with new body work, new interior, etc... i'd be very surprised if they can sell it at 20-22k. im not getting my hopes up...

All that is true....however, you can bet that Honda is making mad cash on the Si now, because most of the development costs have already been paid for.

Now even more-so since it's just using the old TSX engine!

However, the suspension components in the Si are definitely up-level from a regular civic, as well as the steering, rims, tires, etc.

Toyota probably recognizes that it may have to accept very small margins on the car at first, until the development costs have been paid for. The engine will likely work it's way into other Subaru cars, and maybe even some Toyotas. And I definitely do not think that the chassis is completely original. So really, there's nothing that expensive going into the FT....

20-22k is a fair price, methinks.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by ydooby

Just a different kind of fun my friend. Getting the maximum possible amount of side-way action through a corner by carefully negotiating your throttle and steering angle can be equally satisfying as nailing the same corner in the shortest possible amount of time by staying on the best line.

Also, drifting is not necessarily slower. In very tight corners (often seen in autocross) or on low-grip surface (dirt tracks?) you can go around a corner faster by retaining more drive-train momentum/speed in a controlled drift than if you slow enough to "grip" through the turns. Hence you already have your transmission and drive wheels "spun up" as you exit the turns, allowing faster acceleration times coming out of them.

Yes, I know. That's why AWD rally cars do it around hairpins.

I find performance fun, not theatrics. While drifting takes crazy amounts of skill, it's rather pointless. Just personal preference.

And you're not going to be drifting like a maniac on public roads.....if you do I hope you wrap your car around a tree before you hurt somebody! So...setting up a car for drifting is pointless for a production car.....Besides, with 200hp on tap and less torque, it's going to be pretty hard to get this car sideways.

Balance in this car is going to mean the same thing as it does in the Miata. A nimble chassis that immediately obeys every input...and there is definitely lots of driving excitement to be found in that.

[Aki]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Also, AWD always makes a car understeer to some extent IF you accelerate and turn at the same time. Any time you're asking a tire to provide both forward and lateral acceleration at the same time you're going to produce understeer.

It's not that simple. The handling characteristics depend on a lot of things, like sway bar thickness (you see some WRX owner getting thicker rear sways for that reason), front tire width vs rear, LSD, suspension damping/bump, camber, etc. For example, very stiff rear bump damping resists transfer of weight from front to rear, meaning it'd favor oversteer. Then there's how torque is distributed in the AWD system.

As for price, I don't care how sublime its handling characteristics are, it can't be any higher than $24k. Hopefully it'd be around $23k with 200hp. If it's 180hp (which is still my guess), then it had better hover around $20-21k. Anything more and it starts sounding overpriced.

Speaking of iQ, my only fear with Scion is that they'd dump a whole bunch of features/options in the base FT86, thus driving up the base price. It's what they're doing with the Scion iQ, which is why it's at a very unappealing price point. I mean $16k for that car, gimme a break. Why would I spend $1500 more than that instead say a Mazda 2? I don't need Pandora internet radio.

If Scion pulls the same crap with FT86 that'd be really sad.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Aki

It's not that simple. The handling characteristics depend on a lot of things, like sway bar thickness (you see some WRX owner getting thicker rear sways for that reason), front tire width vs rear, LSD, suspension damping/bump, camber, etc. For example, very stiff rear bump damping resists transfer of weight from front to rear, meaning it'd favor oversteer. Then there's how torque is distributed in the AWD system.

As for price, I don't care how sublime its handling characteristics are, it can't be any higher than $24k. Hopefully it'd be around $23k with 200hp. If it's 180hp (which is still my guess), then it had better hover around $20-21k. Anything more and it starts sounding overpriced.

Speaking of iQ, my only fear with Scion is that they'd dump a whole bunch of features/options in the base FT86, thus driving up the base price. It's what they're doing with the Scion iQ, which is why it's at a very unappealing price point. I mean $16k for that car, gimme a break. Why would I spend $1500 more than that instead say a Mazda 2? I don't need Pandora internet radio.

If Scion pulls the same crap with FT86 that'd be really sad.

Yes, you can tune out the understeer caused by AWD to some extent using the techniques you described....however, all other things being equal, AWD contributes understeer. It asks the front tires to do two things at once, and in rear-based AWD applications, it adds weight to the front of the car. Tuning out the understeer using suspension trickery doesn't actually get rid of the understeer...it increases oversteer, which isn't the same thing. A rear-drive version of the car running the same set-up would always have less understeer, because it doesn't ask the front tires to do two things at once.

WRX owners are well aware that increasing oversteer tendencies does not get rid of understeer tendencies...a stiffer rear anti-roll bar contributes to handling feel and can cause much more lift-throttle oversteer, but when accelerating through a corner, the car will still understeer.

The only real way to "fix" understeer in an AWD car is through torque-vectoring, like the GT-R or Evolution uses. Diverting torque to the outside tires, or to the rear tires, can definitely help reduce understeer by helping the car to rotate.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Yes as the JYP goes up our exports become cheaper but you need something to sell for that to work. What do we export that Japan in particular wants from us? It was mentioned a few posts back what some of our exports were. Most of that is natural resources; i.e. corn, wheat, grains, wood, minerals...etc. Our manufacturing sector is shit now that we have sent most of that work to China. Some companies are starting to come back to the USA to manufacture, however it is still heavily skewed to the other side.

Just face it, our economy sucks now. We don't really produce anything that other countries want. Well maybe our fighter planes, aerial drones, tanks, attack helicopters and other military weapons. Right now we are a service economy. We don't produce things like we did back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. We are also a "consumption" economy. Other countries are dependent on us to buy their goods rather than them buying our goods.

In reference to your point above, Subaru/Toyota are going to build the FT86 at a Subaru plant in Japan. So your point about it being built in the US being cheaper is a mute point since that is not taking place in this example. This isn't like the Camry, Solara, Avalon and Venza that are built here.

Just to reference this point with actual data here are our 2011 import/export numbers for Japan and China:

Japan




China



As you can see we import 2x more from Japan and 3.5x more from China than we export to them. The USD has lost 20% against the CNY over the last 4 years. Doesn't look like they are taking advantage of the higher JYP and CNY as you hypothesized does it? I can go back and give you data from 2010, 2009, 2008...etc. showing the same stuff; we don't export much to China and Japan but we sure do buy a lot from them.

Want to see something truly depressing? Here is a list of our top 10 countries we have a trade deficit with and trade surplus. Just ignore China and Japan being in our top 10 trade deficit partners and look at the absolute USD $ amount in the column. That should speak for itself.

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/...t/deficit.html

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/...t/surplus.html






What exactly are we selling again and to whom?





Sure the USD might be the current reserve currency but you would have to live under a rock to know that IMF and world bankers are wondering if that needs to be changed. You probably won't read any of these articles but I figured for the record I should put up recent articles that prove my point


1) Central Banks Dump Treasuries As Dollar's Reserve Currency Status Fades


2) The World Needs a Second Reserve Currency by Moorad Choudhry


3) Economists foretell of U.S. decline, China's ascension

4) Enhancing International Monetary Stability—A Role for the SDR?: It is a long read but it is the IMF report basically saying the USD needs to be replaced as the world reserve currency and they think SDRs are a good solution.



ToyotaObsession, if you have any articles that say the opposite, please share them.




Do we really have to get into that? Hmm lets see, how about the fact that they are geared towards the "ricer" crowd. Every RS that I have followed is basically a new loud color that looks ridiculous. Secondly they have an added body kit/side moldings and maybe a few interior features are changed. That is basically it. Besides the few years Scion offered the TRD supercharger show me an RS that offers a better engine in it? RS is just a bunch of rubbish geared towards the visual appearance with nothing of substance behind it. You can dress up a turd as much as you want, but in the end it is still a turd. It doesn't bother me any since I would never buy a tC or xB, but it is disappointing to me when you consider the legacy of Toyota and TRD. Just feels like they don't care any about performance and want to make the little kiddies happy with these "dope new colors."





Besides interior you could have better/lighter: wheels, tires, suspension parts, brakes...etc. for a higher price. Obviously you can't do all of those things if the difference is just a few thousand bucks, but you could have a few parts be better in the more expensive car (or not as good in the cheaper car).

I was speaking in generalities. You see in my State we export a lot to Japan, so higher Yen/Lower Dollar means more money for us. Cucumber Growers in Florida probably won't see the same benefit as they export nothing and buy expensive electronics. But that's true of all economic policy. Some lose, some win.

We also sell Planes, Food, Software, and other things to Japan.

Yes the economy sucks. Good job for pouting out the obvious.

I never said there wasn't a case to change the reserve currency lol. Just that the USD is the current and only one. Sure it might change in the future. But for the moment it's not changing. So no I'm not going to read any of those articles. Simply because I don't care. I'm on a Car Forum not a Economic Forum.

So because you don't like their marketing that makes them Bullshit? Interesting. I guess if I don't like Sony's Marketing of Viao Computers to women then it must be bullshit right?

You can not like Scion all you want, but that doesn't make the RS bullshit. The fact that they sell means Toyota is doing exactly what they want it to do. Which would in turn means to someone it's not bullshit. So those little kiddies are very happy to drive around those cars and Toyota makes money. So since they aren't marketing it to you, they and I could care less if you think it's bullshit. Just like how Mazda could care less that I think their smiley cars are bullshit.


This is an entry level car. There's only so much they can do to differentiate the two and not outprice it.

I honestly think while they will have different wheels and interior. Most people aren't going to be asking what the weight difference between the wheels are, or what Tires come on it stock. 99% of people don't care about that. Making parts lighter also usually comes at a much higher price. So who's going to be willing to pay for a 100 weight reduction at a $5k+ price tag?

I'm willing to bet they will be base price within a few thousand of each other probably less than $3K. The Subie will probably offer a few more options like Nav or something. But overall they will be very similar.

As for everyone talking about how offering a different Model like an Type R or whatever isn't in Scion's marketing plan right now.

Guess what I'll let you in on a secret. They can change that at any time they want too. They own the damn company. Shocking I know. But it's true. They can do whatever they want.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by Aki

Speaking of iQ, my only fear with Scion is that they'd dump a whole bunch of features/options in the base FT86, thus driving up the base price. It's what they're doing with the Scion iQ, which is why it's at a very unappealing price point. I mean $16k for that car, gimme a break. Why would I spend $1500 more than that instead say a Mazda 2? I don't need Pandora internet radio

Why would you spend $25K on one of those "Smart" cars that can only Seat 2 people and a Purse? Instead of 30 other Cars at that price point that offer a trunk and almost as good gas mileage.

Don't ever be surprised at what people are willing to spend.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Why would you spend $25K on one of those "Smart" cars that can only Seat 2 people and a Purse? Instead of 30 other Cars at that price point that offer a trunk and almost as good gas mileage.

Don't ever be surprised at what people are willing to spend.

Smart Cars only sold well for the first couple years, because of the novelty.

Their sales have plummeted since.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Smart Cars only sold well for the first couple years, because of the novelty.

Their sales have plummeted since.

But people are still buying them.

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

But people are still buying them.

Yes, people are still buying them, but people will buy anything if its for sale. Fewer than 500 cars per month is just sad. Put them out of their misery.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

But people are still buying them.

yeah Seattle is riddled with smart cars and hybrids... Residence of large populated cities are the biggest marketed consumers for those vehicles.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

Yes, people are still buying them, but people will buy anything if its for sale. Fewer than 500 cars per month is just sad. Put them out of their misery.

I've got a pile of Dog Shit. Nobody has bought that yet. So you sure they'll buy anything?

My only point is while 99% of us will never buy a IQ or a Smart car. Some people will. Even if we perceive things to be stupid or better deals out there.

[farugah]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

I've got a pile of Dog Shit. Nobody has bought that yet. So you sure they'll buy anything?

My only point is while 99% of us will never buy a IQ or a Smart car. Some people will. Even if we perceive things to be stupid or better deals out there.

Have you got the said dog shit for sale? How will people know you want to sell it if you dont have it up for sale...

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Giccin

I wasn't talking about Japan prior to that post. Lol I was asking..


"What do people want from the U.S" not Japan. ;p

Top Japanese sushi chefs use Canadian bluefin tuna, and pay huge dollars for it. Probably tuna from northern Atlantic US states too.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by farugah

Have you got the said dog shit for sale? How will people know you want to sell it if you dont have it up for sale...

Craigslist FTW! I actually have multiple piles for sale right now.

So far no takers.

Probably because anybody who's interested in buying Dog shit can go to the local Dog park and get buckets of it for free.