Raven down! Mechanical failure :(

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by rasec29

No engine work, just oil change. I haven't had any issues with CEL or bogging down with the airaid intake. My buddy has the exact same set up with intake and pulley but drives a lot less miles. If those items caused it eventually it would happen to him too. I did just install TRD exhaust the Saturday (2 days before) but doubt that was an issue?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

How long before this incident did you have an oil change?

Like others have said, improper oil level (way too much or too little) could have caused a problem. (That's why I always check the level after a change)

OR...the person doing the oil change didn't tighten the oil drain plug enough, it worked its way loose, and blamo........!

[xwd]

Originally Posted by Tugboat

These are the stories that I hate to hear about. I haven't had any issues with my car at all. First I thought I was good if I make it to 3k, but that's not true. Then it was 6k, and now I know that there was an engine failure just north 10k. How long will this go. I just hope Toyota and Subaru does us all well. I just hope they figure out what the problem is. What if 20k and 30k we are still getting break downs like this? People's warranties will be running out and engines could still be going boom!

I love my car, but I am second guessing my judgement now. I still have faith, but just wondering.

The powertrain (engine) warranty at least on the Subaru side is 5 years, 60K miles.

[Rob_g]

Originally Posted by Tugboat

What if 20k and 30k we are still getting break downs like this? People's warranties will be running out and engines could still be going boom!

I don't think we will know until next summer and some people get more mileage on their cars. Ultimately is this an engine that's going to make 150,000 miles problem free? And just what does this do to resale value because the first question any informed buyer is going to ask is if the engine has had any problems. Like the CEL for example... In a few years people are going to simply say avoid the 2013 model year cars unless you get one at a low price. Assuming 2014 and newer won't have the troubles the 2013 have.

Rob

[Dimman]

Why are people automatically saying it's not the pulley?

On straight 6 motors, that is pretty much a guaranteed way of destroying your motor. Dampers are the way to go with them.

Perrin has extensive testing of these undamped pulleys on completely different motors. Strokes are different, piston weights are different, cranks are different, vibration will be different. But undamped pulley is the same.

Don't be too quick to dismiss it.

[Klar]

Miatas have engine failures from under-driven pulleys. It causes the oil pump to eat itself. Maybe something similar?

[ahausheer]

Under driven pulleys are completely different as they make things spin faster than they were designed. Also this engine is robust as witnessed by 4 and 5 hundred hp on stock internals lasting for at least a few hundred dyno pulls. A non dampened pulley should not cause acute engine failure in a short period of time on a flat engine. I would expect a longer term degradation to crank bearings if anything.

[TheRipler]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

How long before this incident did you have an oil change?

Like others have said, improper oil level (way too much or too little) could have caused a problem. (That's why I always check the level after a change)

OR...the person doing the oil change didn't tighten the oil drain plug enough, it worked its way loose, and blamo........!

Probably this, or oil burning off. When was the last time the oil level was checked?

Originally Posted by Dimman

Why are people automatically saying it's not the pulley?

On straight 6 motors, that is pretty much a guaranteed way of destroying your motor. Dampers are the way to go with them.

Perrin has extensive testing of these undamped pulleys on completely different motors. Strokes are different, piston weights are different, cranks are different, vibration will be different. But undamped pulley is the same.

Don't be too quick to dismiss it.

People are saying this because flat-4 motors are not anything like an I-6. The EJ and FA engines are the same shape, and they have the same firing order. The balance works the same, despite minor differences in weight, because those differences are balanced against each other internally.

The intake would be much more likely to waste a motor in short order. Although I don't see it causing oil to drip out the bottom unless you're just ignoring what the car is screaming.

[rainmonkey]

....crap, is this a red flag on the perrin pulley then??

maybe i should hold off on that part then.

[Rayme]

I don't think we need to panic since this is the first occurence of this type of failure. I'm suprised that it just let go like that without warning, something went wrong real fast!

For one thing, I don't think I'll even attempt to mod that engine now I hope you get that new engine without much problem from the dealership.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by Klar

Miatas have engine failures from under-driven pulleys. It causes the oil pump to eat itself. Maybe something similar?

While on the subject - where is the oil pump on the FA20? EJ-series engines had it right on the crankshaft, but here after a very quick look I don't see it on any of the belts. Any help?
UPD: nevermind, found it.

Originally Posted by ahausheer

Under driven pulleys are completely different as they make things spin faster than they were designed.

You mean slower, right?

[Klar]

Originally Posted by ahausheer

Under driven pulleys are completely different as they make things spin faster than they were designed. Also this engine is robust as witnessed by 4 and 5 hundred hp on stock internals lasting for at least a few hundred dyno pulls. A non dampened pulley should not cause acute engine failure in a short period of time on a flat engine. I would expect a longer term degradation to crank bearings if anything.

Robust from hp figures doesn't mean robust from harmonics. Harmonics are a huge deal for the miata engines. Only ATI came out with a stock harmonics balancer replacement for that engine series until someone else recently went to extremes of engineering a correct balanced AL piece.

I'm new to working on the boxster though. Is there any known issues with harmonics in previous iterations of subies?

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by TheRipler

Probably this, or oil burning off. When was the last time the oil level was checked?



People are saying this because flat-4 motors are not anything like an I-6. The EJ and FA engines are the same shape, and they have the same firing order. The balance works the same, despite minor differences in weight, because those differences are balanced against each other internally.

The intake would be much more likely to waste a motor in short order. Although I don't see it causing oil to drip out the bottom unless you're just ignoring what the car is screaming.

Balance has little to do with the failure causes. An L6 is naturally balanced. The problem is resonance which is affected by all the noted differences between the FA and the EJ. True that short crank H4's will have different frequencies than long crank L6, but there are still differences between motors.


However I'm not saying that it is the cause.

What I'm saying is that people dismissing it because the same part worked on a different motor need to rethink their logic. Perrin also sells 22mm rear sway bars for the BRZ which are clearly re-purposed WRX rear bars.

Now if those bars cause a handling related crash on a BRZ does logic say since they work fine on a WRX, they were not the cause (besides this hypothetical tuner's ignorance) of dangerous handling on the BRZ?

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by rainmonkey

....crap, is this a red flag on the perrin pulley then??

maybe i should hold off on that part then.

Not by any means, this is an isolated incident still under investigation...

[TheRipler]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Balance has little to do with the failure causes. An L6 is naturally balanced. The problem is resonance which is affected by all the noted differences between the FA and the EJ. True that short crank H4's will have different frequencies than long crank L6, but there are still differences between motors.


However I'm not saying that it is the cause.

What I'm saying is that people dismissing it because the same part worked on a different motor need to rethink their logic. Perrin also sells 22mm rear sway bars for the BRZ which are clearly re-purposed WRX rear bars.

Now if those bars cause a handling related crash on a BRZ does logic say since they work fine on a WRX, they were not the cause (besides this hypothetical tuner's ignorance) of dangerous handling on the BRZ?

I think it was Cosworth who posted that the bore centers are the same between EJ and FA, and as you stated, the crank on an H4 is very short. Looking at the cranks, I do not see where the harmonics going to propagate differently. I could be wrong, but I'm just going off of what is more likely.

I'm the guy wondering "Why isn't anyone questioning the untuned CAI?", known killers of subaru motors. That would be far more likely to melt things down, even though it doesn't look like anything melted from what we can see.

Still guessing it's an oil issue until proven otherwise. With the nice break-in, the car could still be burning oil at 10K miles. If it was changed at 7500, there is the chance of an improper fill, or loose drain plug. Plenty of things could go wrong there.

I'm going to go check my oil.