Scion FR-S Cover Article in new Road and Track Magazine

[Dimman]

This whole 'low-volume' thing for justifying high cost is another thing that pisses me off. We haven't seen a lot of stuff on this car that is super-fancy-expensive, which is where the price of performance cars gets driven up. The parts are expensive, so the car is more expensive than its peers to make. Therefore to account for less sales the manufacturers tack on a bigger price for higher profitability.

But why so on the FT86? The transmissions are probably shared with the Lexus IS250, the suspension in the clear Subi display in the current Impreza, the motor's bottom end and accessories are from the car that Subaru expects to be their highest volume vehicle, rear diff probably comes from it too, with an LSD added. So we have some mythical Yamaha heads and D4-S. Whoopee...

Toyota should price this car low enough (less than the bigger motor tC) to MAKE it a volume seller and recoup their money on high sales numbers. Because even if the car is awesome, it won't bring back passion to any brand if no one is driving them. They need the legions of owners like the Civics have, so the there are enough people (percentage-wise) to do all the crazy shit to them, not just buy TRD parts from the Scion dealer so that they are all 'customized' the same...

[Spaceywilly]

Originally Posted by Dimman

But why so on the FT86? The transmissions are probably shared with the Lexus IS250,

How do you figure? The engine in the ft86 is 5" lower that the impreza, which I'm assuming is already lower than the IS. You're saying they can just stick an IS transmission in there? That doesn't seem very likely.

the suspension in the clear Subi display in the current Impreza,

Really? The impreza has multi-link rear suspension?

the motor's bottom end and accessories are from the car that Subaru expects to be their highest volume vehicle, rear diff probably comes from it too, with an LSD added. So we have some mythical Yamaha heads and D4-S. Whoopee...

So you admit that all this stuff is in there, tacked onto the existing parts they've taken from the parts bin. So clearly it's going to add some cost. The price supposedly is in the low-mid 20's, which is cheaper than any other RWD coupe out there except maybe the v6 base Mustang (barf). What exactly are we complaining about again?

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

How do you figure? The engine in the ft86 is 5" lower that the impreza, which I'm assuming is already lower than the IS. You're saying they can just stick an IS transmission in there? That doesn't seem very likely.



Really? The impreza has multi-link rear suspension?



So you admit that all this stuff is in there, tacked onto the existing parts they've taken from the parts bin. So clearly it's going to add some cost. The price supposedly is in the low-mid 20's, which is cheaper than any other coupe out there except maybe the v6 base Mustang (barf). What exactly are we complaining about again?

Price estimate has been climbing in the rumour mill, and people are justifying it by saying it will be 'low-production'. That was all to demonstrate that the parts are in fact the opposite. Toyota could realistically sell this for under $20k and make money on it.

As for the Impreza suspension, yes. The rear uses a rear multilink, with lower radius rods and a compact upper wishbone.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

QFT.. I seriously thought he trolled the shit out of you. After the 1st 3 lines I facepalmed after that.. multiple times, i wasn't sure if he was serious or not. To respond to him properly would take too much effort. LOL

My responses, though combined in one big post, weren't that long compared to Maxim's posts.

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

BTW Deslock, 08+ is GR not GE chassis and this car is for the general public.

My recollection is that in 2008, GR was the STI, GE the WRX sedan, and GH the WRX hatch.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Price estimate has been climbing in the rumour mill, and people are justifying it by saying it will be 'low-production'. That was all to demonstrate that the parts are in fact the opposite. Toyota could realistically sell this for under $20k and make money on it.

As for the Impreza suspension, yes. The rear uses a rear multilink, with lower radius rods and a compact upper wishbone.

What it the basis for your assertion that "Toyota could realistically sell this for under $20k and make money on it"?

Originally Posted by Dimman

This whole 'low-volume' thing for justifying high cost is another thing that pisses me off. We haven't seen a lot of stuff on this car that is super-fancy-expensive, which is where the price of performance cars gets driven up. The parts are expensive, so the car is more expensive than its peers to make. Therefore to account for less sales the manufacturers tack on a bigger price for higher profitability.

But why so on the FT86? The transmissions are probably shared with the Lexus IS250, the suspension in the clear Subi display in the current Impreza, the motor's bottom end and accessories are from the car that Subaru expects to be their highest volume vehicle, rear diff probably comes from it too, with an LSD added. So we have some mythical Yamaha heads and D4-S. Whoopee...

Toyota should price this car low enough (less than the bigger motor tC) to MAKE it a volume seller and recoup their money on high sales numbers. Because even if the car is awesome, it won't bring back passion to any brand if no one is driving them. They need the legions of owners like the Civics have, so the there are enough people (percentage-wise) to do all the crazy shit to them, not just buy TRD parts from the Scion dealer so that they are all 'customized' the same...

There's no point in getting angry.

Low volume means R&D and tooling costs are going to be higher per unit sold.

The Kappa twins were both parts bin halo cars that shared much more with other vehicles than the Toyobaru will. They weren't profitable. In 2009, the base Solstice started at ~$25k and the GXP started at ~$30k (I don't remember the cost of the coupe). The Saturn Sky was an extra $2k.

The Toyobaru ought to sell in higher volume, but they're an example of how volume affects profit (and yes Pontiac and Saturn were also failures overall... that doesn't negate the point).

[pastuch]

I love the FR-S concept as much as anyone but the latest test-mule photos are ugly and generic. Seriously, I don't think Toyota has made a good looking car since the Mrak IV Supra. If these numbers are accurate the 2013 Genesis Coupe is going to rape this car's market.

2013 Genesis Coupe: 274 horsepower and 269 pound-feet of torque, 30+MPG, 3290 pounds. The 2010 to 2012 GCs have a 0 to 60 of 6.8 seconds on the current 2.0T manual. That's with only 223Hp and 217tq. With the new Sonata engine that car is going to be almost as quick as the current V6! My guess is 5.9 seconds.

2013 Scion FR-S: They're forecasting 3000lbs, 200hp, 150lb/ft, 0-60 for the manual at 7.5 seconds and 0-60 for the automatic at closer to 9 seconds.

I didn't include the 2011/2012 Mustang V6 numbers because they embarrass both of these cars... If only it had a decent interior, decent rear end and an independent suspension!

Now all of you are going to flame me because it's a Hyundai. The thing is that brand identity is bullshit and the sooner you accept that the better off your life will be. For evidence see all the Scion hater threads or the countless moron Iphone owners.

Car History: 1991 Toyota Previa (Rear Wheel Drive RULES!)
1990 Mazda Miata (The most reliable, fun to drive car I've ever had)
2003 Tiburon V6 (Unreliable Shitbox)
2004 Mazda RX8 (Fun to drive but finicky engine)
1994 JDM RHD Subaru Impreza WRX Hatch Type RA (Incredible car, just awesome)
2004 Infiniti G35 Coupe (Unreliable Shitbox... Truly awful car!)

Next car: Mustang V6, Genesis Coupe 2.0T or Scion Fr-S... We'll see!

[Ryuu0u]

^^ Are those numbers for the 2013 genesis coupe solidly confirmed or speculation?

[pastuch]

Originally Posted by Ryuu0u

^^ Are those numbers for the 2013 genesis coupe solidly confirmed or speculation?

They aren't solidly confirmed but the 2013 GC is getting two new engines and one of them is the Sonata 2.0T... It may loose the direct injection though because modders don't like DI. I hope it keeps both the twin scroll turbo and DI, I don't mod.

Edit: At this point we know more about the 2013 GC than the FR-S. Toyota is slow.

[Kage]

If it's confirmed that thats the engine going in the genesis then the ft-86 is indeed going to be a tough sell to me especially with all the features and extras the genesis comes with standard. That being said the genesis while actually a pretty nice car is too big and heavy feeling when I drove it. I'm never going to track/race/anything to my car but I do love driving and driver feel is my number1 priority. Power can always be added later.

[82mm 4g63]

Where is there any official mention of them putting the Sonata turbo4 motor in the GC? The last I heard was a modest gain for the current 2.0T.

"The V6 upgrade is expected to mimic the changes already announced on the 2012 Genesis sedan. The addition of direct injection and a higher compression ratio bumps output on the V6 to 333 hp and 291 lb-ft of torque. No exact power figures have been discussed regarding the 2.0T, but we expect only modest gains as Hyundai isn't likely to do anything that will adversely affect the Coupe's mileage figures. The Genesis 2.0T is capable of getting up to 30 mpg on the highway."
http://www.insideline.com/hyundai/ge...auto-show.html

Personally I highly doubt they're going to put that Sonota turbo4 motor in the GC, at least not until they dramatically increase the V6 output or replace the V6 with the V8.

Also the GC 2.0t doesn't even push 200whp, usually around 190.

Bottom numbers being stock from the stock 2.0t.

[pastuch]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

Where is there any official mention of them putting the Sonata turbo4 motor in the GC? The last I heard was a modest gain for the current 2.0T.

"The V6 upgrade is expected to mimic the changes already announced on the 2012 Genesis sedan. The addition of direct injection and a higher compression ratio bumps output on the V6 to 333 hp and 291 lb-ft of torque. No exact power figures have been discussed regarding the 2.0T, but we expect only modest gains as Hyundai isn't likely to do anything that will adversely affect the Coupe's mileage figures. The Genesis 2.0T is capable of getting up to 30 mpg on the highway."
http://www.insideline.com/hyundai/ge...auto-show.html

Personally I highly doubt they're going to put that Sonota turbo4 motor in the GC, at least not until they dramatically increase the V6 output or replace the V6 with the V8.

Also the GC 2.0t doesn't even push 200whp, usually around 190.

Bottom numbers being stock from the stock 2.0t.

Some solid points but if the FRS is advertising 200hp then what is the WHP number going to be? 175 to 180?

Note: With premium gas the GC 2.0T stock gets 199whp.

[Ryuu0u]

For some reason a 2.0 turbo that only makes 200HP doesn't sound very appealing to me, seems somewhat anemic. W/e hope some specs from toyota comes out soon so we can compare better.

[Spaceywilly]

Originally Posted by Ryuu0u

For some reason a 2.0 turbo that only makes 200HP doesn't sound very appealing to me, seems somewhat anemic. W/e hope some specs from toyota comes out soon so we can compare better.

Exactly. The numbers coming out have been all over the place. I don't get why Toyota/Subaru don't give us some real numbers to talk about. The Mule looks production ready so why not just tell us the "approximate, subject to change" numbers.

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by Ryuu0u

For some reason a 2.0 turbo that only makes 200HP doesn't sound very appealing to me, seems somewhat anemic. W/e hope some specs from toyota comes out soon so we can compare better.

I couldn't agree more, 200hp regardless of whether its NA or FI is a very unexciting number. However, the beauty of a turbocharged car like the GC is their responsiveness to aftermarket parts. Drop $1k in a GC and you're up to 235whp, $4k and you're up over 310whp, $6500 and you're over 400whp. Throw the same amount of cash at an 2.0 NA and you'd be lucky to get half that output.