Subaru Coupe (version of FR-S/FT-86) Spotted Inside and Out! + New Interior Pic

[Sabastian]

Maybe we should make a poll. Where will the base price on the Scion FR-S fall? (Not "Where do you want it to fall?")

19-20k
20-21k
21-22k
23-24k
24-25k
25-26k
26-27k

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Maxim

It shouldn't. It's just a slightly heavier, slightly more powerful RWD Celica.

Correction, replace Celica with tC.

That is unless you're going by the 2001-2005 GTS Celica then yeah I could see that, but then people argue todays cost vs 5 years ago.. SO that's why I'd say tC in place of Celica to shut em up.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Sabastian

Maybe we should make a poll. Where will the base price on the Scion FR-S fall? (Not "Where do you want it to fall?")

19-20k
20-21k
21-22k
23-24k
24-25k
25-26k
26-27k

There is a thread about this already.

I want it to fall $19-21k because that is where it belongs and what it's worth, not because i can't afford it. I can buy a 11' 4door STi Sedan right now if I wanted by using the equity on my house.

Where I think it will fall is $23-25k but being sold behind closed doors at $21k, which to me is.. retarded.

[Sabastian]

Originally Posted by ft86cbx

Where did they say that, I must have missed it?

I dont recall Toyota ever mentioning price other than to say they wanted to keep it affordable. I remember magazines saying low 20's but thats just magazine talk.

On a side note I guess the exchange rate could easily add a little on top.

In the UK im expecting prices to start from about 22k. If they can get this down to 20 I would be shocked. 25+ and there nudging a whole new ball park of competition.

Autocar mentioned UK pricing here:
"In all likelihood the car will come to our market in two trim versions, with the entry model priced a little under £25,000. They will share the same power output and manual gearbox; price differences will be made up by interior equipment, body decor and wheel/tyre specifications."

Here's a link to the whole thing:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...llCars/256559/

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by ft86cbx

Where did they say that, I must have missed it?

I dont recall Toyota ever mentioning price other than to say they wanted to keep it affordable. I remember magazines saying low 20's but thats just magazine talk.

On a side note I guess the exchange rate could easily add a little on top.

In the UK im expecting prices to start from about 22k. If they can get this down to 20 I would be shocked. 25+ and there nudging a whole new ball park of competition.

You must of missed the interview where they said the targeted price of ~20k will not be possible(which is going off of USD currency). That it will go for more.. and I'm assuming 23k+ which is absurd. Gives no room for Subaru to price hike over Scion, not many will buy a 27k+ N/A RWD Subaru, IF they price the same as Scion and they are virtually the same car, you know everyone would want the Suby badge for the same price, demographics and resale. So they better think about that too.

Also I think the UK pays more than us due to importing & taxes, plus more taxes when bought. This car might be 28+k over there. How much is a Civic Si/Type-R in the UK to compare?

[ft86cbx]

I think it was circa 22k over here in the UK with deals for just below 20 before going out of production.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Sabastian

The fact that Toyota said outright that it won't cost $19-$20k is reason enough for me to believe that it will fall in the mid $20's. To the best of my knowledge, the Civic Si is the cheapest car you can get with 200 hp, and that car rings in at $22,205. There is no doubt that as a RWD sports car, the FT-86 will carry a premium over the FWD Civic.

The Civic Si is a great car.. motor, trans, interior quality, features, cargo space, seating, performance. The thing handles so well and to me is a balanced car from the factory, I ran used my buddy's Fiji Blue Si Sedan for a week driving to work and autox'd that same week with it. They really nailed it with that car besides the exterior looks, which is subjective.

The FT on the other hand, we'll have to wait and see. But go drive a miata, gen coupe, civic si, and ms3 the same day before you go to Scion dealer upon release, then get into the FR-S and tell me how brain banged you are about trying to make a sound decision to buy it, due to the lack of space, features, power. Honestly I know it's going to be a hard buy for me.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Someone please name something spectacular or innovative about the car? I'll shut up for a little if you do.

there is nothing spectacular about the car. nothing innovative. but guess what? it exists. and that in and of itself is spectacular.

think about it for a sec. what other car out there is small, lightweight, sporty, cheap, looks good and above all else RWD?

-the closest thing is the miata. the problem? its a vert and only seats 2. vinyl/cloth top sucks for winter, hard top exists but price gets up there close to 30k when you start adding creature comforts.
-the civic si would be awesome if it was RWD. but even as a FWD car its popular. but still if you want RWD, you're outta luck
-the RX-8 is not exactly small, not exactly lightweight, not exactly powerful, not exactly cheap. its all around mediocre. next...
-the S2000 was awesome, but it was also a 2 seat vert and it was expensive.
-the ITR/celica got killed off. both great cars but both also FWD.
-the golf is FWD, not exactly lightweight, and its a hatch so its a love it or hate it kinda car
-gen coupe is a big car with flat power in 2.0T trim. tuneable yes, but lets not go there. a great value for sure, but again, its not the same kinda car if you look at the size and weight vs the FT.
-370z is heavy and expensive
-WRX is heavy, AWD, and 4 door/5 door
-RSX-S. would have been great if it was RWD. the FT imo is like a RSX Type S but RWD and lightweight.

so in the end what are left with? what other car is exactly like the FT? the closest cars like the civic si are all FWD...

THAT is the magic of the FT. they turned the traditional ITR/RSX-S/Celica GT-S/Civic Si/SE-R/etc. sport compact car into a RWD sports coupe. same kinda high output NA engine. who out there DIDN'T wish the ITR was RWD? well guess what the FT is starting to sound like? it wasnt the power that made the ITR the modern day legend that it is. it was the overall package for the price/performance. back then it couldnt be beat. but nowadays? cars like those of the late 90's and early 2000's hardly exist anymore. the around 20k compact with enough gusto to not be embarrassing to drive, but cheap and practical enough to daily drive.

[Sabastian]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

The FT on the other hand, we'll have to wait and see. But go drive a miata, gen coupe, civic si, and ms3 the same day before you go to Scion dealer upon release, then get into the FR-S and tell me how brain banged you are about trying to make a sound decision to buy it, due to the lack of space, features, power. Honestly I know it's going to be a hard buy for me.

Yeah, I've always expected the FT-86 to be sort of a niche model like the RX-8 was. I don't think Toyota/Subaru plan to sell a lot of them, and that fact alone would likely drive up the price of any other car. For instance, if the FT-86 were just built by a single company, the car would have to be sold with a fairly high profit margin to cover the development costs. The fact that those development costs cannot be spread over a high volume of sales would likely have driven the price up even higher. This is where the whole joint-venture thing comes in to play. By splitting development costs, Scion/Toyota and Subaru can sell the car at a lower price since they each only need to cover half of the development expenses.

I think the final decision to purchase an FT-86 will not be an easy one for a lot of buyers. The similarly priced hot-hatches will likely offer more power and practicality, and more dedicated sports cars like the Miata will probably offer a more focused experience (along with the whole convertible thing). In the final analysis, I expect that the FT-86 will appeal to folks who want a Miata that they can use everyday, but that will be something to decide after the road test reviews have been written.

As far as the Civic Type R, it is actually priced exactly the same as our Si: £22,205.


PS: You mentioned a lack of features in the FT-86 in your last post. What features do you expect the FT-86 to do without with respect to its competitors?

[bofa]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Someone please name something spectacular or innovative about the car? I'll shut up for a little if you do.

Quantify "a little" for those interested

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Sabastian

PS: You mentioned a lack of features in the FT-86 in your last post. What features do you expect the FT-86 to do without with respect to its competitors?

I agree with what you said.

What I mean by features are like 6cd in dash changer, subwoofer, turbo, moonroof, soft interior, cargo/cabin space, seat capacity. Again it's not that type of car, but when you factor price it gets into the costs of those types of cars.

Car has no motorsports history like the Miata, yet it's commanding a price like it does because it looks good on paper about speculative dimensions and output, not yet released.

The car is going to be a cheap, compact, rwd car with given things like 6spd and lsd based on already engineered parts from Toyota and Subaru. What about the car costs over 20-21k?

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by madfast

there is nothing spectacular about the car. nothing innovative. but guess what? it exists. and that in and of itself is spectacular.

think about it for a sec. what other car out there is small, lightweight, sporty, cheap, looks good and above all else RWD?

so in the end what are left with? what other car is exactly like the FT? the closest cars like the civic si are all FWD...

THAT is the magic of the FT. they turned the traditional ITR/RSX-S/Celica GT-S/Civic Si/SE-R/etc. sport compact car into a RWD sports coupe. same kinda high output NA engine.

The argument is not that it's the only small sized 2+2 car, that's sporty and rwd. It's the price that brings it into a whole different ballpark playing field. If you can't grasp that then you never going to understand. You're basically saying they have the industry cornered in this market allowing them to charge whatever.. wrong. When they ask for more $$ they are inviting other players to the game, which they will lose then.

Also you're assuming the car is under 2700lbs, that it will have 200hp and that it revs, sounds and feels anything like a performance Honda. So if it is great if not, your argument is pointless like mine would be too the other way around.

Do me a favor and take 30minutes of your life and drive a Genesis Coupe Track or Rspec on paper it looks heavy but whip it around and mash the pedal and tell me otherwise that it doesn't feel light yet stable, the engine and turbo do a good job of tq/hp delivery. I'd get it if it had DI, better interior and front end, Hell I think I'm going to get it if 2012 model has DI and this FT flops.

[Sabastian]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Car has no motorsports history like the Miata, yet it's commanding a price like it does because it looks good on paper about speculative dimensions and output, not yet released.

The car is going to be a cheap, compact, rwd car with given things like 6spd and lsd based on already engineered parts from Toyota and Subaru. What about the car costs over 20-21k?

I don't really think Motorsports history adds to the price that much, especially when it comes to road cars produced by mainstream manufacturers, and I don't think Mazda is a charging a premium because some people choose to track their cars. Mazda charges what it does based on what their analysis shows the market can handle.

To answer your question, "What about the car costs over 20-21k?" Well, I would point to the things you mentioned: RWD (which means low sales volume and fewer possibilities for platform sharing), 200hp, 6sp, and LSD. If this car were priced at $20-21k, it would be the cheapest 200hp car on the market, and considering the fact that the FT-86 is being built on an all-new, unique, RWD platform, I really don't see that happening. Furthermore, do you really think Toyota can build a low-volume, RWD, 200hp coupe for as much as Honda charges for a Civic EX sedan ($20,505) or a Focus hatch with alloys ($21,100)?

I notice you keep mentioning the Genesis Coupe 2.0T in your arguments, but I believe that Hyundai is the exception, rather than the rule, when it comes to value. Hyundai consistently undercuts Toyota and Subaru across their respective lineups, and I expect that trend to continue with the FT-86. Oh sure, I'd love for the base FT-86 to start at ~$20k, but I think the days of the $20k sports coupe died when Honda upped the price on the Civic Si Coupe a couple years back.

[bofa]

Originally Posted by Sabastian

I don't really think Motorsports history adds to the price that much, especially when it comes to road cars produced by mainstream manufacturers, and I don't think Mazda is a charging a premium because some people choose to track their cars. Mazda charges what it does based on what their analysis shows the market can handle.

To answer your question, "What about the car costs over 20-21k?" Well, I would point to the things you mentioned: RWD (which means low sales volume and fewer possibilities for platform sharing), 200hp, 6sp, and LSD. If this car were priced at $20-21k, it would be the cheapest 200hp car on the market, and considering the fact that the FT-86 is being built on an all-new, unique, RWD platform, I really don't see that happening. Furthermore, do you really think Toyota can build a low-volume, RWD, 200hp coupe for as much as Honda charges for a Civic EX sedan ($20,505) or a Focus hatch with alloys ($21,100)?

I notice you keep mentioning the Genesis Coupe 2.0T in your arguments, but I believe that Hyundai is the exception, rather than the rule, when it comes to value. Hyundai consistently undercuts Toyota and Subaru across their respective lineups, and I expect that trend to continue with the FT-86. Oh sure, I'd love for the base FT-86 to start at ~$20k, but I think the days of the $20k sports coupe died when Honda upped the price on the Civic Si Coupe a couple years back.

I have to say though... you can't really discount the Hyundai pricing argument since they decided to brand this a Scion. If it was a Toyota, I could see the price being a couple thousand more, without hesitation. Not only because of the brand recognition, but also because of the pricing structure used by Toyota (no pure price).