Subaru Coupe (version of FR-S/FT-86) Spotted Inside and Out! + New Interior Pic

[madfast]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

Yep i completely agree that its a business thing. And having a turbo might not be the best thing for the average consumer and the companies interests in the greater picture of things. But there are ways and methods to offering upscaled models for a smaller market.

Lets take the current Mazda3...special little hatch and sedan models, main purpose is an econo-box with a happy face..yayyy!. Market Department says theres a small population of people who want a sport model. Sure..lets make a controlled production of turboed performance hatches. Mazdaspeed3 priced at $4000+ over the regular 3 model. Mazda still made a good sales records and paychecks. Not a single fuck was given.

Lets take the 90s 240sx, offered only states side with a KA24E/DE. Why? because the SR wouldnt pass emissions? Sorry but it does..iv worked in california and washington emissions before and SR20DE/T has passed emissions. I believe this was a marketing decision to offer a sports coupe without the performance. Could they have made money by offering the turbo model states side? I believe they could have, but didn't pull the trigger. They skipped out on a smaller market, that still could have made them money. But they played it safe, and price the 240sx at a affordable price. It was probably for the better anyhow.

Lets take the Scion FR-S...sports coupe...N/A ..sure its got more than enough performance enough for the average consumer. Its relatively affordable at low to mid $20k. If Toyota-Subaru brought out a turbo model and If we priced it at roughly $4000-$6000 over the non-turbo..probably peaking at the price range of a base model 370z...are we offering more bang for buck? Then the consumer will then start comparing other turbo models like the Genesis Coupe Turbo at around $23,000, a cheaper premium with upscaled models offering more engine for the money. What does a turbo FR-S have over its other competitors? nothing. Thats why i think they wont pull the trigger on a turbo model...unless they bring the price tag down and control the production of turbo units to a crawl. Meaning they will be rare units sold or must be special ordered from the factory at the dealer.

yep agree 100%

and subaru already has the WRX and STI for that tuner/performance market. sure a RWD coupe is technically different, but tell that to a strict businessman... what case can you make from numbers alone?

toyota could definitely use some sportiness in their lineup... oh wait. this is going to be a scion in the US. and will probably be the most expensive, best looking, most powerful model scion has to offer. a scion halo car. and scion traditionally has ONE trim and a la carte options. so all this leads people to believe a turbo is coming why???

[PAImportTuner]

First off where are we coming up with that a turbo compact Scion should even come close to price as a base Z?? Really.. Hyundai developed their own chassis and body with the GEMA motor and performance bits all over and offered at a damn good price of 23k for the Rspec and 25k for the fully loaded Track models. Also tell me a why a RWD small cheap(debatable) interior Scion should be more than 20k? Really??

We have a reworked chassis, D4-s already used, FHI are turbo gurus, engine, trans, diff was already developed.. what does that leave new?? The body and interior styling?? Nothing in this car is costing the joint ventured companies an arm and a leg therefore the price better fall within the companies current models and somewhere way below the sport competition rx8, wrx, Z, base gt mustang, 2.0 track and 3.8 Genesis prices.

Besides the Genesis we have the 11' WRX 4-5 door, good quality overall, nice interior, wheels, wing, exterior, engine, turbo, trans, f/r diffs, dual exhaust, 5 seater and awd for 25k. Tell me how a smaller less of a car should be more??? Giving this, the ft86-turbo should be 23-25k.

Miata is 23k but that's only because it's a convertible, if it was a hard top 2+2 it would of been 3k less, the miatas segment is not the same as this car so you can't say the FT is better than the miata you can only compare to other 2+2 coupes regardless of size. When you compare, the other cars offering more for less. So I just can't fathom a real car enthusiast saying this car doesn't need a turbo model and it would be hella expensive if it did, I don't think it should be.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

First off where are we coming up with that a turbo compact Scion should even come close to price as a base Z?? Really.. Hyundai developed their own chassis and body with the GEMA motor and performance bits all over and offered at a damn good price of 23k for the Rspec and 25k for the fully loaded Track models. Also tell me a why a RWD small cheap(debatable) interior Scion should be more than 20k? Really??

We have a reworked chassis, D4-s already used, FHI are turbo gurus, engine, trans, diff was already developed.. what does that leave new?? The body and interior styling?? Nothing in this car is costing the joint ventured companies an arm and a leg therefore the price better fall within the companies current models and somewhere way below the sport competition rx8, wrx, Z, base gt mustang, 2.0 track and 3.8 Genesis prices.

Besides the Genesis we have the 11' WRX 4-5 door, good quality overall, nice interior, wheels, wing, exterior, engine, turbo, trans, f/r diffs, dual exhaust, 5 seater and awd for 25k. Tell me how a smaller less of a car should be more??? Giving this, the ft86-turbo should be 23-25k.

Miata is 23k but that's only because it's a convertible, if it was a hard top 2+2 it would of been 3k less, the miatas segment is not the same as this car so you can't say the FT is better than the miata you can only compare to other 2+2 coupes regardless of size. When you compare, the other cars offering more for less. So I just can't fathom a real car enthusiast saying this car doesn't need a turbo model and it would be hella expensive if it did, I don't think it should be.

I don't see the Toyota North America entitlement tax included in your figures, or the dealer greed tax.

If Toyota is really serious about bringing excitement back to the brand, they could do us all a huge favour and sell this car at cost.

(I heard they lose money on the Prius in order to promote and show off their tech.)

Keeping in mind that Toyota spends some serious money on R&D ($8.8 Billion in 2007 http://spectrum.ieee.org/images/nov0..._rnd_table.pdf ) what's a few million loss to boost their performance image?

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

First off where are we coming up with that a turbo compact Scion should even come close to price as a base Z?? Really.. Hyundai developed their own chassis and body with the GEMA motor and performance bits all over and offered at a damn good price of 23k for the Rspec and 25k for the fully loaded Track models. Also tell me a why a RWD small cheap(debatable) interior Scion should be more than 20k? Really??

We have a reworked chassis, D4-s already used, FHI are turbo gurus, engine, trans, diff was already developed.. what does that leave new?? The body and interior styling?? Nothing in this car is costing the joint ventured companies an arm and a leg therefore the price better fall within the companies current models and somewhere way below the sport competition rx8, wrx, Z, base gt mustang, 2.0 track and 3.8 Genesis prices.

Besides the Genesis we have the 11' WRX 4-5 door, good quality overall, nice interior, wheels, wing, exterior, engine, turbo, trans, f/r diffs, dual exhaust, 5 seater and awd for 25k. Tell me how a smaller less of a car should be more??? Giving this, the ft86-turbo should be 23-25k.

Miata is 23k but that's only because it's a convertible, if it was a hard top 2+2 it would of been 3k less, the miatas segment is not the same as this car so you can't say the FT is better than the miata you can only compare to other 2+2 coupes regardless of size. When you compare, the other cars offering more for less. So I just can't fathom a real car enthusiast saying this car doesn't need a turbo model and it would be hella expensive if it did, I don't think it should be.

so you propose that the car should cost 23-25k turboed..when the N/A model will probably come 23-25k at the same price tag because its a scion? Predictions are coming up with unothadox price tag for the scion FR-S model. Now im not saying im not with you...id love to see the N/A model im in at around 18k. But this is no econo-box...sports car premiums tend to go up.

Now i understand that the reason why Subaru can offer more car in the WRX/STI model for a lesser premium is because their technology and parts are widely interchangable across most of their platforms. Legacy, Forester, Impreza, share lots of common parts. Which cuts down on overall cost when the vehicle hits dealers.

But who is to say that the FT shares those same parts across those same platforms? diffs and suspension? transmission? brakes? engine? and theres a LOT of different information going about whats being made and who is making it.

Since the car looks like its not sharing a platform with any other cars besides Subaru 216a and Toyota FT i can see how they are sharing manufacturing and R&D costs. which would bring down costs...but marginally. But when i look at companies like FORD/MAZDA/VOLVO sharing the same platform but offering different levels of performance...even if they share costs..they still reach higher performance premiums over the economical models.

When we talk about Nissan..how do you justify the base model 370z coming in at 31k, and 41k for the high nismo model..how do you justify a 10k increase for a marginal performance? You don't. Not in our eyes anyways.

It all comes down to business....and how the company decides to manufacture and offer the car.

I dont see a FR-S turbo hitting 30k+...but i see its coming close at around 27-28k at its 2nd or 3rd year of release of the launch model.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

First off where are we coming up with that a turbo compact Scion should even come close to price as a base Z?? Really.. Hyundai developed their own chassis and body with the GEMA motor and performance bits all over and offered at a damn good price of 23k for the Rspec and 25k for the fully loaded Track models. Also tell me a why a RWD small cheap(debatable) interior Scion should be more than 20k? Really??

We have a reworked chassis, D4-s already used, FHI are turbo gurus, engine, trans, diff was already developed.. what does that leave new?? The body and interior styling?? Nothing in this car is costing the joint ventured companies an arm and a leg therefore the price better fall within the companies current models and somewhere way below the sport competition rx8, wrx, Z, base gt mustang, 2.0 track and 3.8 Genesis prices.

Besides the Genesis we have the 11' WRX 4-5 door, good quality overall, nice interior, wheels, wing, exterior, engine, turbo, trans, f/r diffs, dual exhaust, 5 seater and awd for 25k. Tell me how a smaller less of a car should be more??? Giving this, the ft86-turbo should be 23-25k.

Miata is 23k but that's only because it's a convertible, if it was a hard top 2+2 it would of been 3k less, the miatas segment is not the same as this car so you can't say the FT is better than the miata you can only compare to other 2+2 coupes regardless of size. When you compare, the other cars offering more for less. So I just can't fathom a real car enthusiast saying this car doesn't need a turbo model and it would be hella expensive if it did, I don't think it should be.

The WRX is a car built on a platform shared with what? 2 other models? It's engine is shared all across the Subaru line.

Whereas the Scion will be a stand alone car. Yeah that's part of the reason for the cost.

You also can't say the other cars are offering more for less, because we don't know what were getting yet and at what cost.

Finally... you can fathom it now because real car enthusiasts are saying this car doesn't need a Turbo. There is such a thing as NA performance. Not every car needs to have a Turbo in order to be considered High Performance.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

The WRX is a car built on a platform shared with what? 2 other models? It's engine is shared all across the Subaru line.

Whereas the Scion will be a stand alone car. Yeah that's part of the reason for the cost.

You also can't say the other cars are offering more for less, because we don't know what were getting yet and at what cost.

Finally... you can fathom it now because real car enthusiasts are saying this car doesn't need a Turbo. There is such a thing as NA performance. Not every car needs to have a Turbo in order to be considered High Performance.

You are correct in that it doesn't need a Turbo. For the base edition of the car, a 200hp 2.0L is great, especially if the weight target is hit. If the weight is less than expected (2500-2600) then even better.

However, for the hi-po variant (and you know they will do one), it either needs to keep the same specific output and increase to 2.5L, or it needs a power adder

However....the car IS built on a shared platform. It's using a modified version of the Legacy platform, which cuts costs and allows it to be built without completely overhauling an entire factory to do so. It's also being offered by 2 different companies, which, if they're differentiated enough, should also increase volume and improve the economic case for the car.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

Yep i completely agree that its a business thing. And having a turbo might not be the best thing for the average consumer and the companies interests in the greater picture of things. But there are ways and methods to offering upscaled models for a smaller market.

Lets take the current Mazda3...special little hatch and sedan models, main purpose is an econo-box with a happy face..yayyy!. Market Department says theres a small population of people who want a sport model. Sure..lets make a controlled production of turboed performance hatches. Mazdaspeed3 priced at $4000+ over the regular 3 model. Mazda still made a good sales records and paychecks. Not a single fuck was given.

Lets take the 90s 240sx, offered only states side with a KA24E/DE. Why? because the SR wouldnt pass emissions? Sorry but it does..iv worked in california and washington emissions before and SR20DE/T has passed emissions. I believe this was a marketing decision to offer a sports coupe without the performance. Could they have made money by offering the turbo model states side? I believe they could have, but didn't pull the trigger. They skipped out on a smaller market, that still could have made them money. But they played it safe, and price the 240sx at a affordable price. It was probably for the better anyhow.

Lets take the Scion FR-S...sports coupe...N/A ..sure its got more than enough performance enough for the average consumer. Its relatively affordable at low to mid $20k. If Toyota-Subaru brought out a turbo model and If we priced it at roughly $4000-$6000 over the non-turbo..probably peaking at the price range of a base model 370z...are we offering more bang for buck? Then the consumer will then start comparing other turbo models like the Genesis Coupe Turbo at around $23,000, a cheaper premium with upscaled models offering more engine for the money. What does a turbo FR-S have over its other competitors? nothing. Thats why i think they wont pull the trigger on a turbo model...unless they bring the price tag down and control the production of turbo units to a crawl. Meaning they will be rare units sold or must be special ordered from the factory at the dealer.

Ah, but you're oversimplifying. The Turbo FR-S/SubCoupe WOULD have a distinct advantage against a similarly equipped turbo GenCoupe or a 370z: Hundreds of pounds lighter! That means better performance, especially at road-legal speeds, as well as reduced fuel consumption. Fuel consumption is a HUGELY marketable thing right now. The car would probably sell quite well if offered as an equal performance, increased efficiency alternative to an uplevel GenCoupe or a 370z. It'd also fit in well with Toyota's current marketing plan.

But all this is speculation at this point.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Ah, but you're oversimplifying. The Turbo FR-S/SubCoupe WOULD have a distinct advantage against a similarly equipped turbo GenCoupe or a 370z: Hundreds of pounds lighter! That means better performance, especially at road-legal speeds, as well as reduced fuel consumption. Fuel consumption is a HUGELY marketable thing right now. The car would probably sell quite well if offered as an equal performance, increased efficiency alternative to an uplevel GenCoupe or a 370z. It'd also fit in well with Toyota's current marketing plan.

But all this is speculation at this point.

As a enthusiast myself...i completely agree....but lets say you no NOTHING about cars nothing at all..you don't even know how to drive a stick or wtf a tachometer does. All you know..is you want a sporty rwd car from the East. How is being hundreds of lbs lighter than a 3200lbs GCturbo going to sell? When lighter cars tend to have more raw and unforgiving ride comfort vs the heavier sporty cars with more interior?

How is equal performance going to sell, when you got a Nissan rep talking about racing history trying to sell you a 370z next to a GTR. Vs a Scion rep talking about fun and performance FR-S next to a Scion TC? and at similar price tags. The average consumer will probably look at the TC before pulling the trigger on a high 20k Scion. and a Hyundai Rep talking about GCturbo offering similar performance numbers starting at 22k, and with a 10 year-100,000mile warranty vs FR-S turbo starting at +25k with 5-year limited warranty.

Fuel economy, great i think that's a huge selling point too. 28-30mpg city on a turbo flat-4 needs to happen..it should happen..it HAS to happen. If not, the advantage start to disappear at the GCturbo offering 21city and even the lighter and smaller miata is getting 22mpg city.

BLAH BLAH BLAH...PENIS PENIS PENIS

dont listen to me anymore..im a jackass...lol

[bigbcraig]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

blah blah blah...
the 11' WRX 4-5 door, good quality overall, nice interior, wheels, wing, exterior, engine, turbo, trans, f/r diffs, dual exhaust, 5 seater and awd for 25k.
blah blah blah

STOP RIGHT THERE.

the '11 WRX has F&R LSDs? or did you just mean the fact that it has two open differentials instead of one?
The older (GD) WRXs had rear only, but for 08+ they removed the rear and added the shittiest traction control I've ever driven. If the '11s have diffs, ....... then I'm selling my 08 as soon as I get back from China. I can take a bigger turbo and stiffer suspension and better steering and wider wheels/tires on the >08s but diffs too?!?!!

/rant
On topic now...
As far as the FT86, lets just say this: At least when it first comes out, it won't be turbo'd. It'll probably have right on 190 hp. It'll be light and fun to drive.
The Miata is, for most people/trims, a 25k+ car but for the person who wants to just go have simple fun, it starts at 23k flat. The FT'll have to compete with that.

Subtract the convertible top, add a roof and a rear 'seat', add an LSD, subtract the price Mazda can charge for the name recognition of Miata/MX-5 and you have still got to be able to get an base FT for $21,000 TOPS. Preferably under $20,000

Otherwise the people who want a small, slow, simple coupe will do what they've always done (gotten the Miata anyway) and anyone interested in the FT will just go for the more powerful coupes.

Of course trims will be more expensive, even up to the base of a 370/V6 Genesis but then you're comparing fully loaded vs stripper. (Whats that, 29.900?)
Edit... f*ck GCs are cheap. base model 22.5 but a 3.8 Track is only 29? Yeah, FT'll have to start under 20.


The way I see it, the tC will be the flashier, roomier, more comfortable car while the FT will be the distinctly sportier one. I think they can live like that without cross-competing.
This, of course, means that the FT sales volume will be pretty low

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by bigbcraig

the '11 WRX has F&R LSDs? or did you just mean the fact that it has two open differentials instead of one?
The older (GD) WRXs had rear only, but for 08+ they removed the rear and added the shittiest traction control I've ever driven. If the '11s have diffs, ....... then I'm selling my 08 as soon as I get back from China. I can take a bigger turbo and stiffer suspension and better steering and wider wheels/tires on the >08s but diffs too?!?!!

/rant
On topic now...
As far as the FT86, lets just say this: At least when it first comes out, it won't be turbo'd. It'll probably have right on 190 hp. It'll be light and fun to drive.
The Miata is, for most people/trims, a 25k+ car but for the person who wants to just go have simple fun, it starts at 23k flat. The FT'll have to compete with that.

Subtract the convertible top, add a roof and a rear 'seat', add an LSD, subtract the price Mazda can charge for the name recognition of Miata/MX-5 and you have still got to be able to get an base FT for $21,000 TOPS. Preferably under $20,000

Otherwise the people who want a small, slow, simple coupe will do what they've always done (gotten the Miata anyway) and anyone interested in the FT will just go for the more powerful coupes.

Of course trims will be more expensive, even up to the base of a 370/V6 Genesis but then you're comparing fully loaded vs stripper. (Whats that, 29.900?)
Edit... f*ck GCs are cheap. base model 22.5 but a 3.8 Track is only 29? Yeah, FT'll have to start under 20.

Sorry, I meant having f/r diffs, not lsd, but like the car costs more than just having a rwd setup, where front hubs, axles, etc are not needed. The WRX, even-though somewhat of a different segment, is more of a car than the Scion FR-S and Subaru variant in terms of power capabilities and features.

bigbcraig, I'm glad you understand because for a couple of seconds I thought you would say opposite about pricing. The companies will be in for a surprise if they release the car for more than what it's worth compared to the market, assuming the car will have 200hp, IF it doesn't oh expect more lashings. When Toyota last said that the 19-20k target is not possible not too long ago, I called BS, they just want to charge more, and I bet because the Subaru variant will be a little more so therefore they think they can sell for more and stay close but under which to me is lame, because the Subaru will most likely have justification for that price hike.

On top of what bigbcraig said there is nothing spectacular as far a tech on this car, in fact it will be bare minimum to keep it light and "cheap", it's just a good concept/idea built over a reworked chassis and parts bin galore. Someone please name something spectacular or innovative about the car? I'll shut up for a little if you do.

I'm glad for forums that allow hundreds to thousands of views, where people of common interest can talk about things and get down to the nitty gritty. :happy0180:

[Sabastian]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

When Toyota last said that the 19-20k target is not possible not too long ago, I called BS, they just want to charge more, and I bet because the Subaru variant will be a little more so therefore they think they can sell for more and stay close but under which to me is lame, because the Subaru will most likely have justification for that price hike.

The fact that Toyota said outright that it won't cost $19-$20k is reason enough for me to believe that it will fall in the mid $20's. To the best of my knowledge, the Civic Si is the cheapest car you can get with 200 hp, and that car rings in at $22,205. There is no doubt that as a RWD sports car, the FT-86 will carry a premium over the FWD Civic.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Sabastian

The fact that Toyota said outright that it won't cost $19-$20k is reason enough for me to believe that it will fall in the mid $20's. To the best of my knowledge, the Civic Si is the cheapest car you can get with 200 hp, and that car rings in at $22,205. There is no doubt that as a RWD sports car, the FT-86 will carry a premium over the FWD Civic.

It shouldn't. It's just a slightly heavier, slightly more powerful RWD Celica.

[bofa]

I expect it will be priced to compete with the likes of the Si, GTI and base Genesis, but slightly less since Scion's pure price isn't negotiable in most cases. RWD be damned, they wont sell if they go over too much because it's Mazdaspeed3, WRX territory, regardless of the body style.

It would be a hard sell for a 'sports car' at that price that will probably be outrun by the aforementioned grocery-getters.

I agree with others on the Subie premium, but it better be worth it. Ugh.. why are we still talking about prices. Moar fotos....

[ft86cbx]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

When Toyota last said that the 19-20k target is not possible not too long ago, I called BS

Where did they say that, I must have missed it?

I dont recall Toyota ever mentioning price other than to say they wanted to keep it affordable. I remember magazines saying low 20's but thats just magazine talk.

On a side note I guess the exchange rate could easily add a little on top.

In the UK im expecting prices to start from about 22k. If they can get this down to 20 I would be shocked. 25+ and there nudging a whole new ball park of competition.