Subaru Coupe (version of FR-S/FT-86) Spotted Inside and Out! + New Interior Pic

[Sabastian]

Originally Posted by zigzagz94

Yeah, Levi just joined last month and hasn't fully accepted reality yet.

Haha, Fair enough. I'm not really sure why people are so caught up with numbers on this car. Toyota has said over and over again that it's more about driving involvement than outright buff book-headlining performance. I hope they deliver on that promise because, for me, if this car doesn't provide Miata-level feedback, then no quarter mile performance or Nordschleife time will impress me.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by madfast

this sounds like a nice theory but i need to see cold hard numbers. just saying they're selling well without evidence is useless. manufacturers list sales as a total so its hard to find out sedan vs coupe sales. intuitively sedans should sell more, how much more is the question...

also "selling well" needs to be defined. does it mean % of total car sales of the company? or industry average?

whatever. its a matter of interpretation...

*frustrated sigh*




(don't take that too seriously...I'm just absolutely positive that I'm right. I've been reading about the coupe segment growing in every car rag for like 2 years)

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by madfast

civic si is a hit. why cant this car be one? expectations maybe? like people dont expect a civic to be fast/sporty so 200 hp all of sudden sounds great. but this car looks faster than it really is and people get all disappointed with 200hp?

The Si isn't quite a "hit" but it certainly sells well enough. It doesn't hurt that it's offered in a 4 door.

The Si has a long brand history, proven Honda quality, great gas mileage, strong consumer awareness....that's why it sells well. However...it's also the slowest performance oriented vehicle in it's class. It ALSO enjoys the massive economies of scale that result from being a version of the second best selling car on earth. Those economies of scale mean that it's significantly less costly to build. And the Civic has one of the largest, most devoted aftermarkets around.

The FR-S will be handicapped by the Scion badge. Up until now, enthusiasts have never had a reason to take anything Scion did serious. That will hurt it. It also is built on a heavily modified platform which no-doubt costs more to build than the basic Civic layout. It's smaller and less practical. Insurance will probably be higher.

I want it to do extremely well because it's the type of vehicle that I like to drive, but it's going to be an uphill battle and unless the aftermarket explodes for it.....it might be a losing battle. In the sports coupe segment, the aftermarket is a HUGE consideration.

IF the car is ~2750lbs and has a healthy 200hp, it needs to be priced right in line with the Civic Si, because if it goes ANY higher than that, many non-enthusiasts will just get a GTI, or an Si, or a MS3, or V6 Stang, or a WRX. The car has to have wide appeal...it cannot succeed purely with enthusiasts.

Basically: This car, if it hits around 2750lbs and 200hp...is going to perform very similarly to the RX-8. The RX-8 was a joy to drive, but it flopped because the price put it in competition with much faster cars. Thus, the FR-S needs to be priced lower.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Maxim

IF the car is ~2750lbs and has a healthy 200hp, it needs to be priced right in line with the Civic Si, because if it goes ANY higher than that, many non-enthusiasts will just get a GTI, or an Si, or a MS3, or V6 Stang, or a WRX. The car has to have wide appeal...it cannot succeed purely with enthusiasts.

but the car looks better than all of the above. thats a major selling point, besides price. i know its not going to look exactly the same, but the FR-S had a huge crowd around it at the NY auto show, fwiw. it may be marketed to enthusiasts, but in the end i dont think enthusiasts will be the main buyer...

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by madfast

but the car looks better than all of the above. thats a major selling point, besides price. i know its not going to look exactly the same, but the FR-S had a huge crowd around it at the NY auto show, fwiw. it may be marketed to enthusiasts, but in the end i dont think enthusiasts will be the main buyer...

Looks are HIGHLY subjective. I find the prototype to be fairly plain, though not unattractive. And I thought the RX-8 looked great....

I also remember the concept that Mazda debuted prior to the release of the RX-8...that drew crowds like crazy too....












I found the solution! Just include this with the car....

[Sabastian]

Originally Posted by madfast

but the car looks better than all of the above. thats a major selling point, besides price. i know its not going to look exactly the same, but the FR-S had a huge crowd around it at the NY auto show, fwiw. it may be marketed to enthusiasts, but in the end i dont think enthusiasts will be the main buyer...

Looks are pretty subjective, and based on the spy photos, I think the production car will look a lot like the Ft-86II concept, not the FR-S concept. As a result, I don't see this car selling based purely on looks like Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger tend to. I'm guessing the ratio of enthusiasts to non-enthusiasts will be closer to those of the MX-5 and RX-8 rather than those of the three muscle cars.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Sabastian

Ok, maybe not "lots of people," maybe just a few deluded individuals...
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...?t=1439&page=2

Were you referencing that thread in general, or my post specifically.

Because if you're referencing my post specifically, you really need to learn to read, bud.

[Sabastian]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Were you referencing that thread in general, or my post specifically.

Because if you're referencing my post specifically, you really need to learn to read, bud.

No, I knew you were speaking in the context of engine swaps.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Looks are HIGHLY subjective. I find the prototype to be fairly plain, though not unattractive. And I thought the RX-8 looked great..

of course looks are subjective, but like i said, from what i saw people looked interested in it. the FT86 II and FRS are not that different. not different enough that people would say its not the same car.

as another anecdote, last year five axis also had a wild looking tC design prototype for the 2011 tC. that car had NO buzz whatsoever around it. maybe its just the coupe shape of the FR-S that gets people going.

lastly, my main point is that price AND looks will sell the car. and it will sell mainly to non-enthusiasts. just look at this site. it feels like half the people here, so called "enthusiasts", are asking for a turbo. im sure most here will not end up getting the car as they wait forever for a turbo version which imo will never come out...

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by madfast

of course looks are subjective, but like i said, from what i saw people looked interested in it. the FT86 II and FRS are not that different. not different enough that people would say its not the same car.

as another anecdote, last year five axis also had a wild looking tC design prototype for the 2011 tC. that car had NO buzz whatsoever around it. maybe its just the coupe shape of the FR-S that gets people going.

lastly, my main point is that price AND looks will sell the car. and it will sell mainly to non-enthusiasts. just look at this site. it feels like half the people here, so called "enthusiasts", are asking for a turbo. im sure most here will not end up getting the car as they wait forever for a turbo version which imo will never come out...

If you could kindly explain to me the thought process which allowed you to conclude that people who want a turbo on this car aren't enthusiasts, I would be most....delighted.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Maxim

If you could kindly explain to me the thought process which allowed you to conclude that people who want a turbo on this car aren't enthusiasts, I would be most....delighted.

that was my troll comment

a more succinct statement may be that too many people here are too concerned about numbers/power for a car that was never meant to impress in the numbers/power dept....

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by madfast

that was my troll comment

a more succinct statement may be that too many people here are too concerned about numbers/power for a car that was never meant to impress in the numbers/power dept....

I see no reason to compromise. Obviously there's a market for it, and obviously Toyota knows this....they made a concept out of it.

The whole "wasn't intended for a turbo" line is standard marketing BS to avoid everybody waiting for the turbo model.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Maxim

I see no reason to compromise. Obviously there's a market for it, and obviously Toyota knows this....they made a concept out of it.

The whole "wasn't intended for a turbo" line is standard marketing BS to avoid everybody waiting for the turbo model.

there is a market for it, but its also a smaller market. 5k upgrade to a turbo model aint no chump change to most people. if you're in the market for a high performance car for that price, then good luck for you right? but most people? the people that will make toyota/subaru money? guess what. it aint you.... and guess what? they wont cater to you if you cant make them money. why be so surprised that the car is slow (relatively) and cheap (relatively)??? when did they ever say the car was going to be fast?

marketing BS? maybe. or maybe you guys are just hoping and praying for something YOU want, but may not be economically beneficial for the company. sure the gazoo concept was turbo, but funny enough there are NO pics of the engine and NO vids of it actually running. all we see is an IC... yeah that's real indication we getting a turbo model...

its all about the money. if there is a strong enough case for a turbo model, they'll make it. if not, then they wont. its really that simple. all i can say is look at the sales of its would be competitors (wrx, 370z, etc.) do you think their sales number are strong enough to make a case for a turbo model? imagine yourself as a toyota/subaru exec and will have to put your ass on the line. do you walk into that room, and make a presentation about how this thing should be turboed? about how it needs a second trim to push it into a higher market? with what evidence? which model is out there that is making tons of cash and you need to throw your hat in the ring to get some of that pie?

you cant approach it from a tuner/enthusiast perspective. you have to look at the business side of things first... and on that front, i personally see little evidence of why they would do this. again, maybe later on in the life cycle a la mazdaspeed miata. but in all liklihood, not right off the bat, if ever.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by madfast

there is a market for it, but its also a smaller market. 5k upgrade to a turbo model aint no chump change to most people. if you're in the market for a high performance car for that price, then good luck for you right? but most people? the people that will make toyota/subaru money? guess what. it aint you.... and guess what? they wont cater to you if you cant make them money. why be so surprised that the car is slow (relatively) and cheap (relatively)??? when did they ever say the car was going to be fast?

marketing BS? maybe. or maybe you guys are just hoping and praying for something YOU want, but may not be economically beneficial for the company. sure the gazoo concept was turbo, but funny enough there are NO pics of the engine and NO vids of it actually running. all we see is an IC... yeah that's real indication we getting a turbo model...

its all about the money. if there is a strong enough case for a turbo model, they'll make it. if not, then they wont. its really that simple. all i can say is look at the sales of its would be competitors (wrx, 370z, etc.) do you think their sales number are strong enough to make a case for a turbo model? imagine yourself as a toyota/subaru exec and will have to put your ass on the line. do you walk into that room, and make a presentation about how this thing should be turboed? about how it needs a second trim to push it into a higher market? with what evidence? which model is out there that is making tons of cash and you need to throw your hat in the ring to get some of that pie?

you cant approach it from a tuner/enthusiast perspective. you have to look at the business side of things first... and on that front, i personally see little evidence of why they would do this. again, maybe later on in the life cycle a la mazdaspeed miata. but in all liklihood, not right off the bat, if ever.

Yep i completely agree that its a business thing. And having a turbo might not be the best thing for the average consumer and the companies interests in the greater picture of things. But there are ways and methods to offering upscaled models for a smaller market.

Lets take the current Mazda3...special little hatch and sedan models, main purpose is an econo-box with a happy face..yayyy!. Market Department says theres a small population of people who want a sport model. Sure..lets make a controlled production of turboed performance hatches. Mazdaspeed3 priced at $4000+ over the regular 3 model. Mazda still made a good sales records and paychecks. Not a single fuck was given.

Lets take the 90s 240sx, offered only states side with a KA24E/DE. Why? because the SR wouldnt pass emissions? Sorry but it does..iv worked in california and washington emissions before and SR20DE/T has passed emissions. I believe this was a marketing decision to offer a sports coupe without the performance. Could they have made money by offering the turbo model states side? I believe they could have, but didn't pull the trigger. They skipped out on a smaller market, that still could have made them money. But they played it safe, and price the 240sx at a affordable price. It was probably for the better anyhow.

Lets take the Scion FR-S...sports coupe...N/A ..sure its got more than enough performance enough for the average consumer. Its relatively affordable at low to mid $20k. If Toyota-Subaru brought out a turbo model and If we priced it at roughly $4000-$6000 over the non-turbo..probably peaking at the price range of a base model 370z...are we offering more bang for buck? Then the consumer will then start comparing other turbo models like the Genesis Coupe Turbo at around $23,000, a cheaper premium with upscaled models offering more engine for the money. What does a turbo FR-S have over its other competitors? nothing. Thats why i think they wont pull the trigger on a turbo model...unless they bring the price tag down and control the production of turbo units to a crawl. Meaning they will be rare units sold or must be special ordered from the factory at the dealer.