FR-S and BRZ Both Make the Short List for 2013 North American Car of the Year

[dori.]

No, the proper way is to get statistics.

[Grishbok]

Im just going to leave this here....

http://jalopnik.com/5948330/pointles...ars-and-trucks

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by JonnyRocket

NAC/ToTY is a joke. Fake marketing campaign put together by a fake automotive news group.

We know how great this car is, and so does every reviewer who's driven it.

OTOH, it may very well win very un-fake Motortrend's COTY award, which is given to the new car that best fulfills its intended purpose. The 86 nails it as the affordable, lightweight, nimble pure driver's car we've all been waiting for.

[Draco-REX]

Originally Posted by exmayol

Right. Proper way is to rely on what stealership has to say.

When did I mention the dealership? Please quote it. I'll wait.

I didn't.

On a forum, if someone has an issue, they will post it. But if someone doesn'thave an issue, they certainly aren't going to make a post saying "Everything's fine! What do I do?" Using a forum to judge reliability means you have a skewed sample.

The CEL thread has 122 reported cases. That's out of 13073 users of this forum. Less than 1%. And that's got enough room for error in both directions to drive a truck through. Not to mention that since the problem has been identified, they certainly aren't continuing to produce cars with the defective part, so the percentage is dwindling rapidly.

So again, there are no common issues, just issues commonly reported. The distinction is small, but important.

Where to get good data? At this point in time, there isn't any good data except for what may be sitting in Toyobaru's computers. So you have a choice:

1. Wait until good data is available and buy the car.

2. Get the car now and have fun with it while dealing with any small hiccups that occur.

Frankly, I'd rather be driving the car, which is why I bought one.

Back OT: COTY articles are *ehh* in general because they judge on a lot of criteria that matters to the general public, not enthusiasts. The best COTY articles are ones from enthusiast magazines. EVO's COTY article is always an enjoyable read.

[jarviz]

How do they come up with this list? It looks like all the cars, except for the twins, are 4 door sedans and with practicality much more in mind than performance/fun.

depending on the reviewers, I wouldn't be surprised if the twins weren't in the top 3 simply because the car has no backdoors and can only "fit" 2.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

When did I mention the dealership? Please quote it. I'll wait.

I didn't.

On a forum, if someone has an issue, they will post it. But if someone doesn'thave an issue, they certainly aren't going to make a post saying "Everything's fine! What do I do?" Using a forum to judge reliability means you have a skewed sample.

The CEL thread has 122 reported cases. That's out of 13073 users of this forum. Less than 1%. And that's got enough room for error in both directions to drive a truck through. Not to mention that since the problem has been identified, they certainly aren't continuing to produce cars with the defective part, so the percentage is dwindling rapidly.

So again, there are no common issues, just issues commonly reported. The distinction is small, but important.

Where to get good data? At this point in time, there isn't any good data except for what may be sitting in Toyobaru's computers. So you have a choice:

1. Wait until good data is available and buy the car.

2. Get the car now and have fun with it while dealing with any small hiccups that occur.

Frankly, I'd rather be driving the car, which is why I bought one.

Back OT: COTY articles are *ehh* in general because they judge on a lot of criteria that matters to the general public, not enthusiasts. The best COTY articles are ones from enthusiast magazines. EVO's COTY article is always an enjoyable read.

Bravo my man / woman. Bravo.

Now this man understands how to interpret statistics, not just read / count them.

The difference? One understands where those numbers are coming from and gets the idea of where that fits into the bigger scheme of things, the other just reads the numbers and assumes that is the world.

The most ideal way to truly get an idea of how many problems existed is to count how many cars were sold and are being used (ie: sold to dealership but sitting on the lot do not count since no one can honestly say there is no problem) and then count how many cars have the confirmed problem (confirmed as it they took it to a dealer to diagnose and not some idiot hearing a funny noise and automatically say "FAIL!"). That would be more ideal than surfing a forum and going "AHA!".

Bravo my good man / woman.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

When did I mention the dealership? Please quote it. I'll wait.

I didn't.

On a forum, if someone has an issue, they will post it. But if someone doesn'thave an issue, they certainly aren't going to make a post saying "Everything's fine! What do I do?" Using a forum to judge reliability means you have a skewed sample.

The CEL thread has 122 reported cases. That's out of 13073 users of this forum. Less than 1%. And that's got enough room for error in both directions to drive a truck through. Not to mention that since the problem has been identified, they certainly aren't continuing to produce cars with the defective part, so the percentage is dwindling rapidly.

So again, there are no common issues, just issues commonly reported. The distinction is small, but important.

Where to get good data? At this point in time, there isn't any good data except for what may be sitting in Toyobaru's computers. So you have a choice:

1. Wait until good data is available and buy the car.

2. Get the car now and have fun with it while dealing with any small hiccups that occur.

Frankly, I'd rather be driving the car, which is why I bought one.

Back OT: COTY articles are *ehh* in general because they judge on a lot of criteria that matters to the general public, not enthusiasts. The best COTY articles are ones from enthusiast magazines. EVO's COTY article is always an enjoyable read.

There may be 13,000 members. But how many of them own the BRZ/FRS? I think when you figure that out it will be more than 1% because this car isn't selling like a Camry.

[Draco-REX]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

There may be 13,000 members. But how many of them own the BRZ/FRS? I think when you figure that out it will be more than 1% because this car isn't selling like a Camry.

I also said there were large sources of error.

You're also going to see a higher membership rate of those who are having issues. So there's a lower percentage.

Cars bought vs cars produced; higher percentage.

US car numbers vs world numbers: Lower or Higher...

There's no way to get a solid number. The only people who know are Toyobaru, and they won't tell anyone. But there's no realistic way that the issue covers the majority of cars. I'd be surprised if it's more than 5%, and I more realistically believe it's closer to 1-2% of US cars.

[Turbowned]

Do WE have any say in the matter? If so, everyone just vote for the FR-S, it's easier considering there are many more of them sold and it's more well-known.

Edit: doesn't look like we do?

http://www.northamericancaroftheyear.org/

[Wolfking]

Duh! LL-FRS!

[Moshpit37]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

A limited batch of cars got bad AVCS solenoids and suddenly there's "The 86 engine issues" as if every car has the problem. A forum is NOT a proper sample to judge reliability in any way, shape, or form.

So far, knock on wood, I've had no engine issues. Over 8,000 miles on mine.

[gonzo]

why are so many people infatuated with the 3 series?

drove a 2011 3 series hard top for a while and the only thing i enjoyed was the hardtop and the interior and exterior design.

besides that, throttle response was horrible, suspension was bad, steering was okay, and definitely not enough power for the weight of that hardtop.

I believe that bmws are more about comfort, status, and looks than the actual driving experience... it's sad that this is exactly what most people care about with respect to the car they drive