CEL and Rough Idle Issue Autonews.com article

[Yruyur]

I wanted to post this as a new thread as it may get buried in the main CEL thread. Please post replies in that thread.

My contact at autonews.com has posted an article on the CEL and idle issue with word from Toyota on the issue.

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...-sporty-coupes

[Sigh-on-Rice]

This artical makes more sense to me than Jalopnik's. Thanks for the link.

Edit: weird. I can't access the page anymore. A login screen comes up.

[jeebus]

Originally Posted by Yruyur

I wanted to post this as a new thread as it may get buried in the main CEL thread. Please post replies in that thread.

My contact at autonews.com has posted an article on the CEL and idle issue with word from Toyota on the issue.

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...-sporty-coupes

That's a pretty detailed article. I still find it hard to believe that the ECU can adapt after a certain period of time and be incapable of relearning. That makes no sense. ECUs are programmed with base tables, with safe value, designed to run on every stock vehicle that comes out the door. There is usually some "learning" that occurs after any reset of the ecu; timing tables, fueling tables, maf calibration, etc. those values get more aggressive as you drive the car and the car determines them to be "safe". Certain events, like detonation caused by bad fuel, trigger reductions in values; pulled timing for instance. Continuous bad events can prevent the values from going back up, or if bad enough, throw a CEL, etc.

Are there really areas that freeze and never change?

[fistpoint]

I also think the official response smells of similar things that you'd hear from a White House press secretary. The learning procedure specifically. If the car is learning in the first 100 miles, and you are supposed to baby it for the first 4000! miles, what happens at 4001 when you all finally open it up? The ECU is going to take a shit again?

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by fistpoint

I also think the official response smells of similar things that you'd hear from a White House press secretary. The learning procedure specifically. If the car is learning in the first 100 miles, and you are supposed to baby it for the first 4000! miles, what happens at 4001 when you all finally open it up? The ECU is going to take a shit again?

I was thinking the exact same thing :P

Originally Posted by Sigh-on-Rice

This artical makes more sense to me than Jalopnik's. Thanks for the link.

Edit: weird. I can't access the page anymore. A login screen comes up.

Try the "print version" page, or see copy/pasted text below:

http://edit.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.d...tart&nocache=1

Toyota, Subaru chase rough idle problem for sporty coupes
Mark Rechtin -- Follow Mark on Twitter
Automotive News | October 3, 2012 - 8:02 pm EST

LOS ANGELES -– Toyota and Subaru are grappling with reports of rough idle and stalling conditions on their new sporty coupes.

The problems on initial batches of the Subaru BRZ coupe and its Scion FR-S twin -- known as the Toyota FT-86 outside the U.S. -- is being caused by a software mapping glitch.

Toyota Motor Corp. and Subaru, a unit of Fuji Heavy Industries, developed the sporty cars jointly. And except for some badging and front fascia differences, they are basically clones.

Toyota and Subaru officials say the problem is simply a software bug and that there is no mechanical defect.

But some owners of the coupes disagree, saying the suggested fix hasn’t kept the problem from recurring.

Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said that when the engine control unit (ECU) is installed, it adapts to the car's powertrain and owner's driving patterns, a process known as adaptive learning. Within 100 miles, those settings are basically frozen in the ECU.

With the Toyota and Subaru coupes, some of the software coding that allows the ECU to establish a "handshake" with the engine is in error. The ECU monitors certain driving conditions, and when the engine is found to be out of tolerance, the software picks up an anomaly.

When this happens, the ECU fires off a fault code. As the ECU tries to find an optimal driving condition outside its prescribed tolerances, a rough idle or stalling situation ensues. Typically, the check engine light illuminates, and a fault code of P0019 shows up on diagnostic readers.

Toyota's fix: If the car has less than 100 miles on it, a technician will reflash the ECU with the correct software mapping. If the car has more than 100 miles, the mechanic should replace the ECU.

"It does involve the variable valve timing, but it does not involve a mechanical repair," Lyons said. He said the rough idle is the result of the ECU's attempting to work around its detection of the anomaly, rather than what is triggering the fault code. The reflash "broadens the tolerance of detection."

Subaru's explanation

Intriguingly, while Subaru agrees that ECU mapping is the cause, the automaker believes an ECU reflash is the only necessary repair.

"This is not a mileage-dependent condition. No replacement of the ECU is needed at any mileage to rectify the issue. The ECU re-flash is the fix. There is not a defect concerning the ECU," said Subaru spokesman Dominick Infante.

Toyota's ECU programming is being handled by field technical specialists, rather than dealership service techs, resulting in longer-than-normal repair waits for customers, Lyons said. "Our field offices are coordinating the remedies."

Lyons said all cars that have arrived at a dealership since mid-August should already be reflashed with the correct ECU software mapping. And not every car built before then will have the handshake issue, because "it's a combination of parts, tolerances and interactions between the car and ECU" that can trigger the fault.

Angry customers

As performance coupes, these cars are attracting coveted enthusiast buyers and brand evangelists. But their vocal owners have not been pleased to see their vehicles underperform.

"Mine's on the third week in the shop. Parts are on back-order," a FR-S owner in Washington state known as "Alrashwa" wrote on the FT86club.com Web site. "VVTi cam gear and oil control valve are what they claimed to be replacing. Waiting on gaskets which are on back-order, apparently."

Others on the forum say they have had replacements performed of the camshaft bearing, cam gears, actuators and cam position sensors.

Subaru's Infante called the condition "extremely rare." However, the FT86club had more than 100 registered complaints. What's more, several members who have had the ECU reflashed or replaced said the fix didn't stop the problem from recurring, resulting in other engine fault codes and additional service lane visits.

Toyota and Subaru officials declined to say how many cars could be affected or how many complaints have been filed.

The Subaru BRZ and its clone, the Scion FR-S, share a Subaru four-cylinder boxer engine with Toyota direct injection.

PRINTED FROM: http://edit.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.d...plate=printart
Entire contents @2012 Crain Communications, Inc.

[Eurasianman]

So, Jalopnik's article was good. This one is better. What's the old saying? Third time is a charm? Let's see if we can find one more news stand site to publish this and get a better/different answer from Subaru/Toyota

[brillo]

Press is good, it will keep the heat on the Toyota and Subaru and forces them to officially acknowledge the problem. This will be good should any legal issues arrise I bet all affected owners will end up with some form of warranty extension.

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by Eurasianman

So, Jalopnik's article was good. This one is better. What's the old saying? Third time is a charm? Let's see if we can find one more news stand site to publish this and get a better/different answer from Subaru/Toyota

+1
I want them to address the head casting issue.

[Yruyur]

I emailed the author about that.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by Yruyur

I emailed the author about that.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[alrashwa]

Hah! it's awesome I'm quoted as an "Angry Customer"

That would be an understatement if you asked me at the time. Now that it's fixed I'm all good but I am a little concerned that Toyota/Subaru are still denying that it is a mechanical problem. Mine was opened and repaired mechanically twice...

ECU reflash, if it does work at this point, is most likely a coverup of the real problem.

[ftc~brz]

Originally Posted by fistpoint

I also think the official response smells of similar things that you'd hear from a White House press secretary. The learning procedure specifically. If the car is learning in the first 100 miles, and you are supposed to baby it for the first 4000! miles, what happens at 4001 when you all finally open it up? The ECU is going to take a shit again?

so since mine threw a cel/slp @ 70 miles, should I expect to see it again every 70 miles?
I mean, in the 800 miles I have put on it total (9 days on road 17 days in shop)
That would be a consistent with what I see when she isn't sitting in the service bay.
I say these media induced statements we are given are