Let's discuss SCCA Stock Class

[ABQautoxer]

Originally Posted by fastmike

The BRZ is not a CS car if you keep the ZOK/MSR in the class. Let's not talk about the 370z ..
I am an original owner of a ZOK Solstice and think that it would be a good thing to kick the option packages up to BS and kick the CR S2000 to SS.(not AS).

No disagreements from me but you can only hope in 2014 things will change.

[fastmike]

Originally Posted by TRev

I haven't had much time on the forums as things have been so darn busy...but this is one of the few threads I skimmed over and remembered.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13011

I didn't read the whole thing but have heard of Vivid Racing. I don't have much personal experience with them other than ordering a few parts here and there so I can't say how reputable they are or the tests they performed were. I also didn't read thoroughly enough to know if the Agency Power Catback deletes the second cat. Sorry if my understanding based on that information is wrong.

Even without the extra power and just another ~20lbs of weight loss with a muffler delete and the rest of the car fully prepped, my thoughts are the same...it can win...at least in RTR

That would not be legal in stock class. BUT! RTR might be "heating up" next year. You better have the correct car if you want to play. I don't think the BRZ/FRS is the right car to have in "current" CS class.
I'm not trying to say that it isn't a really cool class now though.(RTR)
IMO, the 180 treadwear tires are the future of SCCA stock class autox.
Might as well join the party.
FM

[jdrxb9]

Originally Posted by TRev

I haven't had much time on the forums as things have been so darn busy...but this is one of the few threads I skimmed over and remembered.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13011

...

Yeah, the whole AP/Vivid Racing testing thread left me a bit cold since some of their combo results didn't make sense to me, the results are way higher than other cat-backs, and then there was a posting from an actual AP customer that showed +1 hp and a different curve shape - http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16815

Originally Posted by TRev

Even without the extra power and just another ~20lbs of weight loss with a muffler delete and the rest of the car fully prepped, my thoughts are the same...it can win...at least in RTR

This part I don't disagree with!

As mentioned elsewhere, I had the car on the rack today and it just so happens my alignment guy is also an exhaust guy. We came up with a plan for a 2.5", single central muffler, single exit system that I figure will save almost as much weight as a muffler delete, will be PA legal, and I won't have to mess with! It'll be on by the car by spring.

[des]

Waiting for aliens in equally prepared MSRs and ZOKs and FRZs to show up and do battle in RTR at Nats. ...

Having fun until then.

(Side note: .7 behind Clint Child's ITR at a local event. I don't think he was trying hard, but it did feel good ...)

[TRev]

Originally Posted by jdrxb9

As mentioned elsewhere, I had the car on the rack today and it just so happens my alignment guy is also an exhaust guy. We came up with a plan for a 2.5", single central muffler, single exit system that I figure will save almost as much weight as a muffler delete, will be PA legal, and I won't have to mess with! It'll be on by the car by spring.

Hopefully that exhaust guy has the means to produce a number of them as I think they would be an item that sells rather well! You are fortunate to have a resource like that close to you My plan was to get a custom exhaust made that is similar but put a V-Band before the muffler so it is an easy swap to go without the muffler in a matter of minutes and lose that weight.

Originally Posted by des

Waiting for aliens in equally prepared MSRs and ZOKs and FRZs to show up and do battle in RTR at Nats. ...

Having fun until then.

(Side note: .7 behind Clint Child's ITR at a local event. I don't think he was trying hard, but it did feel good ...)

I would definitely consider pimping out my BRZ next year to an alien that wants to co-drive if RTR heats up enough to attract one.

Nice job on your finish Des :happy0180:

[Sccabrz192]

Originally Posted by fastmike

That would not be legal in stock class. BUT! RTR might be "heating up" next year. You better have the correct car if you want to play. I don't think the BRZ/FRS is the right car to have in "current" CS class.
I'm not trying to say that it isn't a really cool class now though.(RTR)
IMO, the 180 treadwear tires are the future of SCCA stock class autox.
Might as well join the party.
FM

I cannot begin to express how much I disagree with your last statement.

1st logistically, you start from scratch on classing and index because when you remove that much grip, you completely change the relative performance of one car versus another. It's not the same impact to all cars, and it is certainly not linear to today's classing structure.

2nd financially, it's absolutely crazy to suggest that you save money running street tires over R-comp tires. Sam posted a video on his facebook that I think sums it all up, a "RT" competitor swapping from street tires on his Z06 to a brand new set of Hoosiers after nationals, why? because they last longer and cost about the same (maybe less? not entirely sure). Just because it saves you money on a H-stock mini, doesn't mean it saves money for everyone. Plus, how many REALLY competitive runs do you get out of a set of street tires? To be nationally competitive, you still can end up buying the same number of sets of tires for the year.

Don't get me wrong, I am completely in favor of having a RT-index class available for those who want to run them, but forcibly moving all stock class competitors to go backwards in prep and capability when it doesn't make sense for many, is silly.

3rd sponsorships/vendors, just in the last year or two BFG and Goodyear have both made good strides to provide a competitive alternative to the hoosier A6... they are obviously recognizing the buying power of the autocross community (again) and muddying the waters with talks of removing those type of tires from stock class will quickly make them reconsider, not to mention the instability of the erroneous treadwear requirements and specific tire bans if moving backwards to street tires happen.

[ABQautoxer]

Originally Posted by Sccabrz192

Plus, how many REALLY competitive runs do you get out of a set of street tires? To be nationally competitive, you still can end up buying the same number of sets of tires for the year.

This is the biggest myth I've seen repeated. This was my first year on street tires. We have done 170 runs total on two sets of tires (106 and 64 so far) that still both have at least 1/2 their life left AND are not any slower than they were new. Thats two drivers for two ProSolos including the finale, Nationals, and countless regional events. How many sets of Hoosiers would we be on? They last about 45 runs on our car, so we'd be through 4 sets so far and they cost $1300/set vs $800 on the streets. While I can appreciate the idea you don't want stock changed, this is not IMO, the argument to use.

[Sccabrz192]

Originally Posted by ABQautoxer

This is the biggest myth I've seen repeated. This was my first year on street tires. We have done 170 runs total on two sets of tires (106 and 64 so far) that still both have at least 1/2 their life left AND are not any slower than they were new. Thats two drivers for two ProSolos including the finale, Nationals, and countless regional events. How many sets of Hoosiers would we be on? They last about 45 runs on our car, so we'd be through 4 sets so far and they cost $1300/set vs $800 on the streets. While I can appreciate the idea you don't want stock changed, this is not IMO, the argument to use.

I do appreciate that Tom, it's certainly favorable for many vehicles, but in my argument I did state that this is not true for every vehicle type... heavier and higher HP 2WD vehicles, which are popular in stock class and do have a place in the sport, will chew through tires at a much faster rate.

As far as staying power, are they REALLY the same? would you feel confident in your chances at nationals on 100+ run tires?
We can put about 120-130 runs on our ASP tires, and they can be completely competitive at a local level up to about 100 runs, but to show up to a national event with over 40 run tires, you wont compete.

[ABQautoxer]

I know what you are saying but that wasn't true on my Z06 or Boxster either...I just never ran them nationally, because I couldn't on street tires before. Also, I think the DS WRX eats tires about as fast as any stock car.

Yes, I do. I ran my fastest two events on the last time I ran both sets. The 60 run set I ran the fastest run ever on those on run 58. On the 106 run tires, I ran the best on run 106. We only started running the newer set because like you, it sounded crazy to go to the Finale/Nats on 106 run tires. We should have as sticker tires are arguably a little slower than 30+ run tires.

SP+ classes don't count. They belong on race tires and you have the needed adjustability to get decent life from them. We are talking about Stock class only. I don't want total thread derailment here but seriously, I'm not crazy, I wouldn't want to go this route if I had not experienced this for myself.

[mla163]

There is definitely a drop off in performance in ST tires over their life. Same as R-comps. Newer is better. But a Hoosier dies when it is corded. When an ST tire falls off, you can still drive it semi competitively for another season.

Stock Corvettes on R-comps. Absolutely.

Stock Mini on R-comps. I think that's silly.

[ABQautoxer]

This is the big question for road tire ideas. I ran my C5Z on the last gen of street tires and it simply wasn't fun as I could never put power down. However I have run into a fair share of people in stock that want to run street tires in cars like this because they have no other option as there is no ST home for them. Now I'm sure they are a lot better on the current gen of tires, but I have no experience to see is that fun enough. The best compromise arguments I have seen is SS/AS/FS stay on race tires and make the others go to streets or something along those lines...

[7thgear]

street tires have been very popular here in Canada

for the average competitor arriving and driving competitively without having to carry tools and spare tires around has been a big plus.

The day we had street tire classes introduced was the day i stopped bringing my jack with me. On event day i wake up, grab my helmet, tire pressure gauge and pump, a bottle of water and a sandwich. Off i go.

My hands stay clean, my knees don't get fucked up, and my car's trunk doesn't get destroyed.

Rain events no longer ass-fuck me, i pop open my umbrella and strut around like a boss, chillin.


Do street tires save on costs for the die-hard competitors who are aiming for 1st place nationally? NO. But that's a whole different breed of competitors, and if anything i'll get more satisfaction from getting close to the top on a single set than actually being at the top having blown all my wife-allowance.

[Sccabrz192]

Originally Posted by ABQautoxer

I know what you are saying but that wasn't true on my Z06 or Boxster either...I just never ran them nationally, because I couldn't on street tires before. Also, I think the DS WRX eats tires about as fast as any stock car.

Yes, I do. I ran my fastest two events on the last time I ran both sets. The 60 run set I ran the fastest run ever on those on run 58. On the 106 run tires, I ran the best on run 106. We only started running the newer set because like you, it sounded crazy to go to the Finale/Nats on 106 run tires. We should have as sticker tires are arguably a little slower than 30+ run tires.

SP+ classes don't count. They belong on race tires and you have the needed adjustability to get decent life from them. We are talking about Stock class only. I don't want total thread derailment here but seriously, I'm not crazy, I wouldn't want to go this route if I had not experienced this for myself.

I understand your biggest issue with my comment is related to the longevity difference between RTs and R-comps, and I am fine with putting that debate to bed. I've just had contrary experience, I haven't run street tires since around 07-08, we used to run the 232 hankooks as well as the Advan Neovas, both of which used to be shaved, and we didn't get any better life out of them than I did on R-comps. From second hand sources, I've been left to believe that is still the case in many vehicles instances related to the R1R and the RS-3. I'd be concerned by pushing RTs to all stock classes, in order to set their tires performance apart, you will see tire life deminish back to the point of lots of tire shaving and still autocross specific compounds, it just wouldn't solve anything long term.

Also FWIW, we are within OE specs for alignment, and with double-wishbone even with the stiffer suspension and less used travel, we didn't significantly alter the tirewear characteristics (aside from dumping gobs more torque and HP out back.

[xwd]

Originally Posted by TRev

Hopefully that exhaust guy has the means to produce a number of them as I think they would be an item that sells rather well! You are fortunate to have a resource like that close to you My plan was to get a custom exhaust made that is similar but put a V-Band before the muffler so it is an easy swap to go without the muffler in a matter of minutes and lose that weight.



I would definitely consider pimping out my BRZ next year to an alien that wants to co-drive if RTR heats up enough to attract one.

Nice job on your finish Des :happy0180:

I really liked the look and sound of the Perrin on the street so I bought a Perrin catback. It feels a little faster but maybe it's just noisier. It also has a nice v-band flange right before the muffler. ATP makes this 90 degree v-band part here which I'm currently waiting for.

http://tinyurl.com/8mp9w4y

So my plan was identical to yours. I'm using the non resonated Perrin and without the muffler it's loud so I wanted the turndown. The exhaust is also really hot and I don't trust it to not damage something.

As for the street tire debate, I agree with fastmike. I like racing on race tires since it's more fun to me, but in 5 years will we be using R comps in stock? I seriously doubt it. Of course there is the sponsor stuff but the street tire manufacturers have deeper pockets than Hoosier ever will.

Trevor I don't think we ever met but I used to autocross in MKE and know everyone up there pretty well, I plan on coming up there for an event sometime next year.