Report: Subaru Coupe STI Model Possible, But Without Turbo

[serialk11r]

Yea I think anyone would pay a tiny bit more for a good looking car. It's like a piece of clothing you wear lol. It's not even hard to make a budget car look good, I don't think it takes fancy shapes and curves and lines. For example I think the 2nd gen MR2 looks great, but there is nothing really fancy on the body. Hyundai definitely nailed that point with their cars, especially the Genesis coupe.

[Maxim]

It's more expensive to build a great looking car than a good looking car.

The techniques used to mass produce body panels dictate that certain things cannot be done, or are prohibitively expensive. Additionally, it is significantly more expensive to produce a frame that allows a sexy body shape and maintains structural integrity than it is a more boxy (strong) frame out of less expensive materials that might not allow as much freedom with the body panels.

It's also more expensive to design and create more complex detailing for a vehicle, something that can contribute greatly to the overall look of a car.

It is NOT more expensive to build a good looking car than a bad looking car though.




An example of this is the side shapes on the new Camaro. I've spoken with one of the chief engineers for that project (an absolutely stand-up guy, Scott, over on z28.com, goes by Fbodyfather.) and GM pushed the absolute limits of mass produced sheet-metal to make the shapes on the side of that vehicle.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Maxim

It's more expensive to build a great looking car than a good looking car.

The techniques used to mass produce body panels dictate that certain things cannot be done, or are prohibitively expensive. Additionally, it is significantly more expensive to produce a frame that allows a sexy body shape and maintains structural integrity than it is a more boxy (strong) frame out of less expensive materials that might not allow as much freedom with the body panels.

It's also more expensive to design and create more complex detailing for a vehicle, something that can contribute greatly to the overall look of a car.

It is NOT more expensive to build a good looking car than a bad looking car though.




An example of this is the side shapes on the new Camaro. I've spoken with one of the chief engineers for that project (an absolutely stand-up guy, Scott, over on z28.com, goes by Fbodyfather.) and GM pushed the absolute limits of mass produced sheet-metal to make the shapes on the side of that vehicle.

I doubt it. 1) It's steel. 2) It's GM. Jaguar was the one pushing the limits because they are working with aluminum which has more complicated springback.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I doubt it. 1) It's steel. 2) It's GM. Jaguar was the one pushing the limits because they are working with aluminum which has more complicated springback.

Don't discount information based on pre-existing bias. I've spoken with him personally about it. He was extremely enthusiastic about the car (he now owns 2, plus a pre-production ZL-1, and a Z06), and one of the main elements that he wanted to preserve was the overall "concept car" look. The man is absolutely awesome, he even offered to email my local dealer to try and get me a good deal right when the first Camaro's came out because I'd spoken with him frequently online. He did the same for many members over at Z28.com.

GM noticed how enthusiastic he was and how well he presented himself to the target market and promoted him, and he STILL maintains a presence on many Camaro/Firebird forums. I absolutely trust the guy, there hasn't been a single thing he said about the project that wasn't 100% accurate. He even told us about compromises that had to be made well ahead of the actual vehicle's debut, things like the addition of a B-pillar and how the vehicle couldn't pass rollover tests without it.

Jaguar works at a higher price point, allowing them to use more expensive manufacturing techniques.

The camaro was made with traditional techniques and materials, and using those things, it is very very difficult to get the steel to go into the shapes that are on the side of the car. GM came up with a whole new process to get it to work within the given budget.

[xrs]

Uh oh, sounds like Mugen Honda Civic Si syndrome hahahah.

I've already waited so long, I don't think I can wait any longer for the sti model. At least I won't feel so bad getting the Scion if the sti does come NA.

[AIRMAX]

Originally Posted by chulooz

Now where are those sources about Tada being the chief engineer? especially when it says that its a subaru-designed drivetrain, obv. w some input from Toyota.

Oh yeah, and SOA Blog already called this info.

Toyota has their own Product Planning Chief that is in charge of this project... as it is a co-developed project.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Don't discount information based on pre-existing bias. I've spoken with him personally about it. He was extremely enthusiastic about the car (he now owns 2, plus a pre-production ZL-1, and a Z06), and one of the main elements that he wanted to preserve was the overall "concept car" look. The man is absolutely awesome, he even offered to email my local dealer to try and get me a good deal right when the first Camaro's came out because I'd spoken with him frequently online. He did the same for many members over at Z28.com.

GM noticed how enthusiastic he was and how well he presented himself to the target market and promoted him, and he STILL maintains a presence on many Camaro/Firebird forums. I absolutely trust the guy, there hasn't been a single thing he said about the project that wasn't 100% accurate. He even told us about compromises that had to be made well ahead of the actual vehicle's debut, things like the addition of a B-pillar and how the vehicle couldn't pass rollover tests without it.

Jaguar works at a higher price point, allowing them to use more expensive manufacturing techniques.

The camaro was made with traditional techniques and materials, and using those things, it is very very difficult to get the steel to go into the shapes that are on the side of the car. GM came up with a whole new process to get it to work within the given budget.

Fair enough. They could have left off the fake vents and saved themselves all the headaches though...

[switchlanez]

^I remember the Toyota Matrix set a precedent in body stamping technology (revolutionary) when it was first introduced in the early 2000's. The Camaro probably uses a derivative of that technology (just evolutionary). 370Z panels look just as, if not more, complex than the Camaro. Cost to produce complex body panels goes down as manufacturing technologies both improve and get cheaper. Other automakers will inevitably meet or exceed this sophistication.

This has been going on for decades.

[bigbcraig]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

...Toyota Matrix...370Z...This has been going on for decades.

Of course, metallurgy and metalworking has been going on for millennia not decades! Of course in a few years' time, the Camaro's metalworking will have been met and exceeded. Doesn't mean it was easy to do.

To assume that the Martix was truly revolutionary is a bit naive; as is the assumption that the technology used in the Camaro is a direct descendant from Toyota's decade old tooling.


ANYWAY if you look at the Camaro, pay attention to just how deep the metal is in the rear quarter panel, and if I'm correct, it does extend over into the roof rail. Remember that for something that has to produced as cheaply as the Camaro, that has to be ONE operation from flat metal to form, and be impressed. Its VERY hard to quickly form a flat piece into a form that deep, especially with the 'shelf' of the camaro instead of the 'draped' 370Z depth.
And look at the crease of the rear fender, and how it continues all the way down next to the door. With the short lead on the other side, that's pretty hard to do.

Not your comment, but to someone else's comment, the 'vents' and crease over the wheel well probably didn't make any difference, relatively, in the tooling difficulty. Those are important stylistically in breaking up the big plane leading to the rear fender and aren't hard to form. The big difficulty in sheet metal is getting it to go so deep without tearing, cracking, etc.


Speaking of the 370Z, you'll notice that its rear fender is quite deep, but not nearly as much as the Camaro: its a much smaller piece of metal and just binds to the hatch seam, but the Camaro continues so far sharply in and then also goes over as the roof rail.

I personally don't like the Camaro as a car, but the metalwork has always impressed me.

Is there a way to scale those pictures to something more reasonable?

[Kage]

no leave them the size they are, I enjoy looking at them

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Fair enough. They could have left off the fake vents and saved themselves all the headaches though...

It wasn't the vents, it was the stamping process to get the change in depth around the rear fenders where they meet the roofline

[Want.FR-S]

Originally Posted by bigbcraig

...


ANYWAY if you look at the Camaro, pay attention to just how deep the metal is in the rear quarter panel, and if I'm correct, it does extend over into the roof rail. Remember that for something that has to produced as cheaply as the Camaro, that has to be ONE operation from flat metal to form, and be impressed. Its VERY hard to quickly form a flat piece into a form that deep, especially with the 'shelf' of the camaro instead of the 'draped' 370Z depth.
And look at the crease of the rear fender, and how it continues all the way down next to the door. With the short lead on the other side, that's pretty hard to do.

Do you know where the lines meet for the rear quarter panel? It is not clear from the picture, as it seems the sheet metal kind of extended to the roof and out. I cannot see the line for that quarter panel, thus make it very hard to form.

I wonder if this is all in one piece, it would be very expensive trying to replace that piece of the metal in a car accident.. Typically, for this design, the rear quarter panel will be cut between the C pillar and the panel itself to save for repair cost...

[Zaku]

Man every time I see a 370z I think about how sexy it is I feel like im betraying the FR-S and 2000rs

[Midship Runabout]

All that work into making the camaro look cool and none into consideration of visually being able to see OUT of the car. Its like driving a tank.