FR-S / FT-86 Gadgets

[Dark]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Yes. I was referring to the FR-S, which is not. So....a digital boost gauge would just sit there and tease you about your lack of boost.

ouch... quoted the wrong guy.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by CyberFormula

just putting a point that...a NISSANJUKE...has a boost gauge...
Even the New Beetle concept has temp/boost gauges....

Wouldn't it be awesome to get an Air/Fuel ratio or an Exhaust temp gauge from Factory? that tells me they really want customers to tune their car

Having and AFR gauge paired with a factory narrow-band O2 is silly...

[bofa]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Toyota branded it a Scion in North America for the sole purpose of bolstering Scion's brand image and attracting enthusiasts.

The vehicle will be priced low enough that non-enthusiasts will likely buy it cuz it's "cool," and enthusiasts will buy it because it's good. And enthusiasts function as free marketing because they talk to people about their cars. Toyota know this.

I'd be very surprised if we didn't see this vehicle offered in more than one trim level. If that's too big of a "change," then Scion can simply offer "package deals" on certain combinations of dealer installed accessories.


The issue with Scion thus far has been due to a cultural misunderstanding by the Japanese, in my opinion. In Japan, the automobile serves a different purpose for young people. The roads are way more congested, and young people see vehicles more as a necessary appliance. Dressing it up with add-ons and doo-dads and basically treating it like a cell phone fits their culture; it's easy to see that the model of a mobile-phone store was used to guide Scion's dealer experience. Covers, add-ons, graphics, mass produced "personalization," etc.

Well guess what: that doesn't fit in the states, where a person's first vehicle might happen at 16 and is usually something used. Kids don't want to "upgrade" to something that's being marketed as a "first vehicle" once they're in their early 20's and on their own. They want something with the image of "cool," not "kiddie-pool."

Japan has seen a mass exodus away from vehicles as enthusiast machines, especially among young people. This is exactly why Toyota, and now Honda, have largely abandoned that market....and it's why they're bleeding market share here in the states where that market is alive and well.

Sorry my man, but you are pretty far off on this. Dealer customization fits in the US, at all ages. In fact we are known to add anywhere from 5 to 30% of the purchase price in dealer add-ons. Most people here want the bells and whistles and don't know how to add it themselves and are quick to just pay for someone else to do it. Plus people like to finance stuff and pay for it later... there's no easier time to do that than to "just add an extra 20 to my payment" at the dealerships.

Preferences by age group here vary widely. It depends on the person and how they were raised. We have those that could care less if their car is new or used, and some in the extreme of either category. Some just treat cars like an appliance here as well. Others treat them as status symbols. Some treat them as a means of accomplishment, and many others treat cars as personal projects as soon as they get them home.

Your generalizations above fit a very select few in the US. The reasons Toyota and Honda are losing marketshare are pretty vast right now.

• American cars have been stepping up their game lately in design and quality.
• Honda's pricing puts them above other cars in the same category and as people are crunched for money, they are more willing to try other vehicles.
• Toyota has had quite a few recalls lately and our media had plastered it everywhere so some people wonder if it's worth the pricetag for a brand that might not be what it once was. Scion is just an extension of that.
• Scion is viewed as a quirky younger brand here, but take a trip down the road and I bet you will see more retirees driving the xA and xB than youngsters, and more teen or college females in the tC. They don't really have a "guy's car" right now and nothing with a real backbone to compete against these other brands.
• You also have companies like Hyundai and Kia creating its own class of cars that are slightly more affordable and gaining ground in the quality, performance, and style departments.
• There's also a conscious effort of some people that think they are helping our struggling financial system by "buying American". What's funny is when they think they are doing this and buying a Chevy made in Mexico...

I'm sure there are others but I'm still working on my first cup of coffee.

Americans are a fickle group.. and there's no one size fits all and no single reason for our purchasing trends.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by bofa

Sorry my man, but you are pretty far off on this. Dealer customization fits in the US, at all ages. In fact we are known to add anywhere from 5 to 30% of the purchase price in dealer add-ons. Most people here want the bells and whistles and don't know how to add it themselves and are quick to just pay for someone else to do it. Plus people like to finance stuff and pay for it later... there's no easier time to do that than to "just add an extra 20 to my payment" at the dealerships.

Preferences by age group here vary widely. It depends on the person and how they were raised. We have those that could care less if their car is new or used, and some in the extreme of either category. Some just treat cars like an appliance here as well. Others treat them as status symbols. Some treat them as a means of accomplishment, and many others treat cars as personal projects as soon as they get them home.

Your generalizations above fit a very select few in the US. The reasons Toyota and Honda are losing marketshare are pretty vast right now.

• American cars have been stepping up their game lately in design and quality.
• Honda's pricing puts them above other cars in the same category and as people are crunched for money, they are more willing to try other vehicles.
• Toyota has had quite a few recalls lately and our media had plastered it everywhere so some people wonder if it's worth the pricetag for a brand that might not be what it once was. Scion is just an extension of that.
• Scion is viewed as a quirky younger brand here, but take a trip down the road and I bet you will see more retirees driving the xA and xB than youngsters, and more teen or college females in the tC. They don't really have a "guy's car" right now and nothing with a real backbone to compete against these other brands.
• You also have companies like Hyundai and Kia creating its own class of cars that are slightly more affordable and gaining ground in the quality, performance, and style departments.
• There's also a conscious effort of some people that think they are helping our struggling financial system by "buying American". What's funny is when they think they are doing this and buying a Chevy made in Mexico...

I'm sure there are others but I'm still working on my first cup of coffee.

Americans are a fickle group.. and there's no one size fits all and no single reason for our purchasing trends.

Actually I think I'm still right on the money. (and by the way..I'm not German. I'm American)

Yes, American consumers love having other people do things for them. Your point about "just add $20 to my car payment" is spot on. And Americans love customization. Scion took aim directly at those two things that were very obvious about American tastes.....but it failed to catch on. In fact, the completely wrong market went after Scion....more than a decade off of what the target age demographic was.

Why?

For the exact reasons I stated before. Most first cars are used cars in the US. Once somebody has graduated to bigger and better things.....they don't want the slow, bubble shaped thing that's marketed to young people. They want the fast, luxurious thing that impresses their peers. And they're willing to buy used to do that.

In Japan, the culture is much less focused on the individual and more focused on the collective. There's also less emphasis on masculinity (though to be fair, every country on earth has less focus on that than the US). Scion's cars are designed to fit all your friends, use very little gas, park in small spots, play music, and make a visual statement that allows other people who are like you to identify you. They're basically not designed to be cars - that's a secondary concern. They're designed as a tool to allow you to stay with your group regardless of where they go.

Those elements are significantly more important in Japan than they are in the US. There's plenty of parking space here for larger vehicles that can still hold all your friends, the roads are not congested unless you live in a major city. And the group of people who talk about their cars the most, and make suggestions to other people the most (that's enthusiasts by the way) do not buy tiny bubble cars unless they say Mini on them. They are more interested in getting a used car and modding the snot out of it, fuel economy and practicality be damned.

Scion's business model might very well be a great one - but there's a problem. Young American consumers are not interested in buying a bunch of gizmos, attachments...and putting them on a rolling egg. Values on cars are different between Japan and the States, and Scion has not released a vehicle that appeals to very many Americans yet. Scion's vehicles fit the tastes of young people in Japan....not the United States. In the United States, they fit the tastes of slightly older people still trying to look like young people....lol

(except maybe the tC which is actually a pretty decent sporty coupe...and wouldn't ya know it, it's Scion's perennial best-seller despite having the highest average transaction price!)

[bofa]

Yeah but the fact that most 1st cars are used doesn't do anything to take away from what Scion is or was intended to be. Before Scion there were plenty of other econo-boxes by all brands. You could get a similar priced Echo, Sentra, Cavalier, Focus etc with the similar features. Scion just offered a more polished version of the econo car. Scion's initial plan of making an economy car somewhat cool was not to recruit more parents of 16 year olds into dealerships. The targeted audience has been the 18-20 somethings (thus the pure price - meant for new shoppers), but as you pointed out they missed that because older people found the price and standard features to make it a better purchase than what they were usually accustomed to buying (esp when combined with the flailing economy). I agree that this is their attempt to get out of that rut. Plus by adding a performance model, it gives them something to build upon for future models.

Look at how Hyundai started and what it has become today. Scion is under the same long term plan but with Toyota's backing and proven heritage. Most new brands have to start small and cheap and work their way into the more expensive market. Scion is doing the same thing but is controlled in balance with Toyota offerings.

[mx5apex]

I'd like a real temp and oil pressure gauge with the tach and speedo positioned correctly.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by bofa

Yeah but the fact that most 1st cars are used doesn't do anything to take away from what Scion is or was intended to be. Before Scion there were plenty of other econo-boxes by all brands. You could get a similar priced Echo, Sentra, Cavalier, Focus etc with the similar features. Scion just offered a more polished version of the econo car. Scion's initial plan of making an economy car somewhat cool was not to recruit more parents of 16 year olds into dealerships. The targeted audience has been the 18-20 somethings (thus the pure price - meant for new shoppers), but as you pointed out they missed that because older people found the price and standard features to make it a better purchase than what they were usually accustomed to buying (esp when combined with the flailing economy). I agree that this is their attempt to get out of that rut. Plus by adding a performance model, it gives them something to build upon for future models.

Look at how Hyundai started and what it has become today. Scion is under the same long term plan but with Toyota's backing and proven heritage. Most new brands have to start small and cheap and work their way into the more expensive market. Scion is doing the same thing but is controlled in balance with Toyota offerings.

Right, I know. The main issue is that young people's idea of what is "cool" are NOT the same in Japan as in the US. Cool in Japan is a vehicle that allows you to carry on with all the other things in your life, especially your friends. Cool in the US is a vehicle which looks like it wants to eat your mother in law and shit out clouds of awesome on the way to the local loop to pick up a chick. And it better not be shaped like an egg because that will make the activities with said chick much more difficult.

[bofa]

Nice

[Aki]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Cool in Japan is a vehicle that allows you to carry on with all the other things in your life, especially your friends.

Cool in Japan is a boxy mini mini-van (preferably with a "relax" seat that lounges all the way back), compact or kei, with a hybrid powertrain. In Japan size is a big deal because you'd pay more taxes for a bigger car. The FR-S would be a "normal" sized car and not a compact due to its width. They don't like coupes either--so for a lot of reasons the FR-S is not a cool car at all for the general buying public. I suspect most of the interested buyers would be older people in their 30s and up who've grown up with the AE86. The kids will keep buying their Mitsubishi Colts and other similar cars.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Aki

Cool in Japan is a boxy mini mini-van (preferably with a "relax" seat that lounges all the way back), compact or kei, with a hybrid powertrain. In Japan size is a big deal because you'd pay more taxes for a bigger car. The FR-S would be a "normal" sized car and not a compact due to its width. They don't like coupes either--so for a lot of reasons the FR-S is not a cool car at all for the general buying public. I suspect most of the interested buyers would be older people in their 30s and up who've grown up with the AE86. The kids will keep buying their Mitsubishi Colts and other similar cars.

Yeah I addressed that in my post. Because of the cultural shift and reality of japanese roads and tax laws, different traits in a vehicle are valued in Japan. Efficient usage of interior space is a high priority, along with the ability to network various electronic goodies with the car, allowing OTHER aspects of life to be enjoyed more often. That, combined with the lack of hyper-masculinity (because seriously, America places way more emphasis on this than anywhere else in the world), is responsible for the boxy mini car popularity there.

I guess the easiest way to put it is this: In America, coolness in a car is self contained...the CAR is the star, whereas in Japan, coolness in a car is a bit more dependent on what the vehicle allows you to do outside of driving.

There's also the fact that Japan kind of has a technology fetish - sometimes to the point that technology is viewed as a positive factor even when it has zero benefits, as in the CR-Z.

[Giccin]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Yeah I addressed that in my post. Because of the cultural shift and reality of japanese roads and tax laws, different traits in a vehicle are valued in Japan. Efficient usage of interior space is a high priority, along with the ability to network various electronic goodies with the car, allowing OTHER aspects of life to be enjoyed more often. That, combined with the lack of hyper-masculinity (because seriously, America places way more emphasis on this than anywhere else in the world), is responsible for the boxy mini car popularity there.

I guess the easiest way to put it is this: In America, coolness in a car is self contained...the CAR is the star, whereas in Japan, coolness in a car is a bit more dependent on what the vehicle allows you to do outside of driving.

There's also the fact that Japan kind of has a technology fetish - sometimes to the point that technology is viewed as a positive factor even when it has zero benefits, as in the CR-Z.

I love Japan.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Giccin

I love Japan.

Yup Japan is pretty cool.

[Dimman]

Japan is messed up. 'Egg' magazine...

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Japan is messed up. 'Egg' magazine...

Haha. Yes they're a very strange people. But that's ok.