FR-S vs. 370z, end all be all of discussions

[enc0re]

I am/was a Celica fan but could never get over the styling and hard plastic interior of the 7th Gen. The 5th and 6th Gen were gorgeous.

I did love that the Celica got lighter with every generation. I'm a bit sad this isn't being sold as the 8th Gen Celica.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Exage

That's funny because my 2ZZ-GE Corolla can keep pace with a K20Z3 Civic Si, I wouldn't call it an underwhelming engine.

Compared to the 3S-GTE it was.

[Exage]

There was no All-Trac in the US Celica line up for the sixth Gen... Therefore the previous 6th Gen had no 3S-GTE to compare to the 7th Gen 2ZZ-GE in the north american market.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Exage

There was no All-Trac in the US Celica line up for the sixth Gen... Therefore the previous 6th Gen had no 3S-GTE to compare to the 7th Gen 2ZZ-GE in the north american market.

Wasn't comparing it to any particular market. But thanks for making my point for me.

[xantonin]

Originally Posted by Leeky

Sorry what is a K20Z3? We get the Civic Type R in England with 200bhp. Is this the same car?

There was a limited edition Corolla sold over here with a TTE Supercharger fitted from the Factory with 213bhp.... and that still cant beat a Civic Type R on the track which is a shame as I love to see Toyota models beating their equivalent Honda.

Out of curiosity are you sure every Celica you see on the track is the 2ZZ-GE engine? I'm not sure what trims were sold there, but there's a lot of the 1ZZ-FE engines in the Celica.

According to Autozone, something like 89% of Celicas are the GT trim, the rest 2ZZ-GE.

I think that the GT was the reason the Celica failed. You shouldn't sell a great car and market it for the lower engine...

[xantonin]

Originally Posted by enc0re

I am/was a Celica fan but could never get over the styling and hard plastic interior of the 7th Gen. The 5th and 6th Gen were gorgeous.

I did love that the Celica got lighter with every generation. I'm a bit sad this isn't being sold as the 8th Gen Celica.

Really? I love the interior of the Celica. I think it's beautiful.

The plastic is for light weight. Having nearly taken apart my cars entire interior I can confirm it is light weight.

The only thing that bothers me is the scratch resistance... It's pretty low.

Also the 00-02 models had an ugly (IMO) light grey color. 03+ had the nice black/charcoal look.

[xantonin]

Originally Posted by Leeky

The figures you quoted say it dropped sharply from year 2000 to 2003, but what about the sales for 2001 and 2002? Im sure the drop is more progressive if you fill in the gaps.

Over here in the UK Gen7 Celica's are everywhere. Its a very common car and sold very well.

I know that in the whole production life of the MK4 Supra no more than 47000 JDM cars were produced, 11239 Cars for the US Market, 623 were sold to the UK... So going by those figures the Gen7 Celica sold more in its 7 years on sale than the MK4 Supra managed in 10 years.

The Market for the Gen7 is the same market that the Gen6 was in and every previous celica before that. With the exception of the Gen7, the Celica's always came with the option of a 2.0 litre engine and were RWD for its first 3 generations after all which makes the FT86 follow suite nicely.

Of course this car is a spiritual homage to the AE86 which sat below the Celica in the model range. But given the dimension of the FT86 its closer to the size of the Celica if im not mistaken. So it should be well placed to appeal to a broad range of different buyers.

Yes the Gen7 was the Celica that killed off the Celica (Only a torqueless 1.8 and no Turbo model) and yes the advertising was rubbish but i guess its all that Toyota gave them to work with and the marketing department did their best to sell it. Im sure a lot of buyers asked the sales guys at the dealership "When is the GT4 version coming?". Im sure a lot of people were holding out for something that never came, which must have been a huge impact on sales.

When you think about what it was up against at the time it really didn't stand a chance - Integra Type R (DC2), Nissan 200SX (S15) & Mazda RX8. If you were after performance you'd have been mad to choose the 2ZZ-GE powered Celica over those alternatives. Toyota's reliability is what probably shifted the most Celica's, but the 1ZZ-FE ironically is a terrible engine that destroys itself over time.

But i think its safe to say that the FT86 will sell itself on looks and hype alone. As long as we get at least 200bhp and a perfectly balanced chassis I don't think any advertising department in the world could mess up trying to sell these cars.

Those are good points but I think you underestimate the 2ZZ-GE engine. It's a really good engine. I have personally raced a Civic Si on the highway and beat him with no mods.

Mind you, I think he would win from 0 MPH though as the Celica isn't very good until 30 MPH when "lift" kicks in in 1st gear at 6,200 RPMs.

[Exage]

Originally Posted by Leeky

Sorry what is a K20Z3? We get the Civic Type R in England with 200bhp. Is this the same car?

There was a limited edition Corolla sold over here with a TTE Supercharger fitted from the Factory with 213bhp.... and that still cant beat a Civic Type R on the track which is a shame as I love to see Toyota models beating their equivalent Honda.

The K20Z3 is a 197bhp, 140ft-lb, K Series 2.0L engine in the North American Civic Si, Similar to the K20Z4 in your European Civic Type-R.

Apparently the Corolla T-Sport does 0-60mph in a claimed 8.4???? http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews...t-1003296.html

If that's the case it's about 1 second slower to 60 than the USDM Matrix XRS. No wonder! The Corolla T-Sport without the supercharger would be no-where in sight of a Type-R. The T-Sport Compressor is a only a tick or two faster then my Corolla XRS to 60 at a claimed 6.9s.

[Leeky]

Originally Posted by xantonin

Out of curiosity are you sure every Celica you see on the track is the 2ZZ-GE engine? I'm not sure what trims were sold there, but there's a lot of the 1ZZ-FE engines in the Celica.

According to Autozone, something like 89% of Celicas are the GT trim, the rest 2ZZ-GE.

I think that the GT was the reason the Celica failed. You shouldn't sell a great car and market it for the lower engine...

I've never seen any 1ZZ-FE powered Celica's on the track (afaik), only T-Sport/GT (190bhp) models and once or twice i've seen a TRD-M (200bhp). I guess the kind of people who buy the lesser powered model arent interested in hitting the track.

I do like the 2ZZ-GE, i think its a fantastic engine. But i think it was a poor decision by Toyota to stop using the 3S-GE, especially as at the time they had the Rev4 VVTI 3S available with up to 220bhp stock (Black Top Altezza 6 Speed).

The 2ZZ-GE really suits smaller lighter cars like the Gen3 MR2 (MR-S) and the Lotus Elise/Exige where you dont need as much torque. But the engine was to small for the Celica imho. And having two 1.8 engines in the lineup with different horse power must have been confusing for buyers trying to figure out which model they were looking at.

[xantonin]

Originally Posted by Leeky

I've never seen any 1ZZ-FE powered Celica's on the track (afaik), only T-Sport/GT (190bhp) models and once or twice i've seen a TRD-M (200bhp). I guess the kind of people who buy the lesser powered model arent interested in hitting the track.

I do like the 2ZZ-GE, i think its a fantastic engine. But i think it was a poor decision by Toyota to stop using the 3S-GE, especially as at the time they had the Rev4 VVTI 3S available with up to 220bhp stock (Black Top Altezza 6 Speed).

The 2ZZ-GE really suits smaller lighter cars like the Gen3 MR2 (MR-S) and the Lotus Elise/Exige where you dont need as much torque. But the engine was to small for the Celica imho. And having two 1.8 engines in the lineup with different horse power must have been confusing for buyers trying to figure out which model they were looking at.

I agree, I think the line up was stupid. They should have stuck with only the 2ZZ-GE model and gone all out IMO.

The Celica is pretty light at 2,500 lbs though.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by Leeky

The 2ZZ-GE really suits smaller lighter cars like the Gen3 MR2 (MR-S) and the Lotus Elise/Exige where you dont need as much torque.

The Celica was one one of the lighest cars in its class, skimming the scales at under 2500lbs. A good 200lbs lighter than the Civic Si hatchback, and roughly the same weight as the Civic Si coupe. The 2ZZ outperformed the Honda equiv.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

The Celica was one one of the lighest cars in its class, skimming the scales at under 2500lbs. A good 200lbs lighter than the Civic Si.

Anyone ever make a ZZE86 with a swap?

[chulooz]

Yes, but it still weight hundreds more than his examples; respectively at about 2,200 and 2,000/2,000

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Anyone ever make a ZZE86 with a swap?

I've seen all kinds of swaps in the AE86: UZ, 7M, 13b, 12a, 3S, F20 and F22,....but never personally a 2ZZ swap.

Thats not to say it hasn't been done....just haven't personally seen it.