FastLaneDaily talks about Scion's FRS

[Random_Art]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

reminds me, iv been seeing less and less scions on the road these days and more Subarus and Hyundais.

Not to mention that Kia and Nissan have taken over the "dorky toaster car" segment

[Dimman]

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10005873-48.html

"Scion was intentionally created to be different, but it has always had to work to stay separate," says Bolain. "You don't want to let the parent company dominate, but it can happen."
Adds Lentz: "It's more of a battle now. We have to reeducate TMC on the reasons for Scion."

Emphasis is mine, obviously.

But seriously WTF???

2004: 99,259
2005: 156,485
2006: 173,034
2007: 130,181
2008: 113,904
2009: 57,961
2010: Only Jan and Feb numbers (6,062 in 2 months extrapolate that to est. 36,372 for the year).

Keep those numbers in mind. And they feel they are in a BATTLE with Toyota on how to run the brand???

They're down approximately 140,000 units a year from their peak and feel they need to RE-EDUCATE Toyota???

There is no face-palm significant enough for this situation...

[Dark]

Originally Posted by Dimman

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=61

The site that I linked to has been completely revised, but those numbers are official Scion numbers.

And they're not pretty.

It's sad to see the figure. There is no way an effing sport car can save the brand. Just give up already, you have 6 months to think about it, Toyota.

[Dark]

Originally Posted by Dimman

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10005873-48.html

Emphasis is mine, obviously.

But seriously WTF???

Keep those numbers in mind. And they feel they are in a BATTLE with Toyota on how to run the brand???

They're down approximately 140,000 units a year from their peak and feel they need to RE-EDUCATE Toyota???

There is no face-palm significant enough for this situation...

First off, Lemme help you



Second off, I like how they follow GM's footstep, which sucks all the way until now.
Third, They make good cars, but they are poor at marketing. Look how Lexus CT200h 3D advertising copied from Kia Soul, it's worse.

[VenomRush]

since we are talking about image here, why havn't you guys mentiond TOYOTA's image now. Toyota's image is different now than it was 15-25 years ago. Toyota has something good going now with safe reliable great-gas mileage cars. i feel like if you have this car next to the rest of the toyota lineup, it'll clearly be the odd-ball blacksheep of the family. and thats something that toyota probably doesn't want(the image thing). and also lets be reasonable about this being the heart of the AE86.a small percentage of people in america will really give a shit that its "AE86 inspired" and those are the toyota lovers. im going to be honest, the first time i saw the AE86 was in a gran turismo game, and i thought it was a piece of shit cuz it didn't go fast. it wasn't till i learned of its iconic handling and balance till i began to appreciate the car. what im getting at is most people today wont take the time to learn the greatness of that formula that made it a special car and i gotta be honest, all that doesn't mean crap when it comes to the FR-S which is a new car. so, i think toyota is doing the right thing for america in putting it as a scion, dont agree with it but its the right thing mainly because they KNOW its going to sell big and scion needs a face lift. so whats the big deal??

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by VenomRush

since we are talking about image here, why havn't you guys mentiond TOYOTA's image now. Toyota's image is different now than it was 15-25 years ago. Toyota has something good going now with safe reliable great-gas mileage cars. i feel like if you have this car next to the rest of the toyota lineup, it'll clearly be the odd-ball blacksheep of the family. and thats something that toyota probably doesn't want(the image thing). and also lets be reasonable about this being the heart of the AE86.a small percentage of people in america will really give a shit that its "AE86 inspired" and those are the toyota lovers. im going to be honest, the first time i saw the AE86 was in a gran turismo game, and i thought it was a piece of shit cuz it didn't go fast. it wasn't till i learned of its iconic handling and balance till i began to appreciate the car. what im getting at is most people today wont take the time to learn the greatness of that formula that made it a special car and i gotta be honest, all that doesn't mean crap when it comes to the FR-S which is a new car. so, i think toyota is doing the right thing for america in putting it as a scion, dont agree with it but its the right thing mainly because they KNOW its going to sell big and scion needs a face lift. so whats the big deal??

Subaru in North America.

Pre-WRX. Post-WRX. Compare.

I've said before, but what is the 'move-up' car for the FT86? It doesn't fit in the plan to get new people to the Toyota family. Where does a Scion FR-S owner go to after? Starting with a Scion tC and moving into a Toyota FT86 would fit with their plan better, don't you think?

The logical 'move-up' car the the FR-S is the 370Z. Especially considering how much these two are compared to each other here. Those that want a 370Z but can't afford it, may end up with an FR-S. Then when they are in a better financial position may move to the Z-car.

There's nothing in the Lexus marque either, short of the LFA, that suits a follow up to the FT86. IS-F MAYBE, but that's a huge price jump.

Back to the numbers, the Scion FR-S will not bring back the sales they enjoyed at their peak. Especially on its own sales, and not even on 'trickle-down' sales of tC's or whatever...

Where the Scion to Toyota strategy fails, is that the cars between the brands don't complement themselves. The strategy needs to be more complete for it to work. The FT86 as a Toyota would be a step in that direction.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by kawazydude

"Saving" a brand means more than simply boosting its sales figure - it's about boosting its brand image. Given how amazing the FRS looks, no one denies the FRS will do just that, especially since the entire purpose of the car was to bring passion and excitement back into Toyota cars. But that's again why I'm so frustrated with Toyota USA's decision (thanks for pointing that out Xantonin): the purpose of the FRS/FT-86 was to boost Toyota's image in being able to make exciting sports cars again b/c of its lack of such cars in the past decade. Yet, Toyota USA thought it better to give the beautiful FT-86 to Scion. Why? Well, I think most would agree (including the two guys in the youtube video I posted) that it's because Scion was in greater need of an image booster than Toyota. Sure, there are no official reports from the company stating this, but honestly, would anyone ever expect a company to come forth and say this? I think we can all agree that the FRS is definitely meant to save, or at least significantly help, Scion's image and sales.

Now, I hope somebody doesn't then say, "But Scion is part of Toyota, so why would giving the FT-86 to Scion not also boost Toyota's image as a whole?" Well, it's b/c what we're talking about right now is the image of the respective brands as separate entities. If you don't understand this, then think about why most people still don't know that Scion is actually a Toyota brand, and let that answer your question my friend.

Companies only care about image to the point where it sells their product. If they are moving Cars they could care less what the image is. If your image is selling to young people, but only 40+ year old females buy it they don't care as long as the profits keep coming. Marketing is a funny thing as as long as the product is moving they will pretty much keep doing whatever it is they are doing even if it's not selling to their target market.

Scion's image is of young, youthful, sporty Cars. The FT-86 fits perfectly within that. Toyota's image is of the Camry and Tundra. Lexus is the only other choice for something like this but they are a Luxury Brand, not a Cheap Brand.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Companies only care about image to the point where it sells their product. If they are moving Cars they could care less what the image is. If your image is selling to young people, but only 40+ year old females buy it they don't care as long as the profits keep coming. Marketing is a funny thing as as long as the product is moving they will pretty much keep doing whatever it is they are doing even if it's not selling to their target market.

Scion's image is of young, youthful, sporty Cars. The FT-86 fits perfectly within that. Toyota's image is of the Camry and Tundra. Lexus is the only other choice for something like this but they are a Luxury Brand, not a Cheap Brand.

Scion is not moving cars, though.

[Giccin]

Originally Posted by Giccin

Like I've said... Image nowadays has played a very important role in everything you do. From the way you dress, what you work as, where you went to school, how you act and in this situation--what you drive.

I know there are people out there who do not care about any of that and it is safe to say that it's silly to but, IMAGE IS AMERICA. I think people are forgetting that.

Originally Posted by Dimman

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10005873-48.html

Emphasis is mine, obviously.

But seriously WTF???

Keep those numbers in mind. And they feel they are in a BATTLE with Toyota on how to run the brand???

They're down approximately 140,000 units a year from their peak and feel they need to RE-EDUCATE Toyota???

There is no face-palm significant enough for this situation...

Originally Posted by VenomRush

since we are talking about image here, why havn't you guys mentiond TOYOTA's image now. Toyota's image is different now than it was 15-25 years ago. Toyota has something good going now with safe reliable great-gas mileage cars. i feel like if you have this car next to the rest of the toyota lineup, it'll clearly be the odd-ball blacksheep of the family. and thats something that toyota probably doesn't want(the image thing). and also lets be reasonable about this being the heart of the AE86.a small percentage of people in america will really give a shit that its "AE86 inspired" and those are the toyota lovers. im going to be honest, the first time i saw the AE86 was in a gran turismo game, and i thought it was a piece of shit cuz it didn't go fast. it wasn't till i learned of its iconic handling and balance till i began to appreciate the car. what im getting at is most people today wont take the time to learn the greatness of that formula that made it a special car and i gotta be honest, all that doesn't mean crap when it comes to the FR-S which is a new car. so, i think toyota is doing the right thing for america in putting it as a scion, dont agree with it but its the right thing mainly because they KNOW its going to sell big and scion needs a face lift. so whats the big deal??

Toyota specifically stated in their video (the release of MKII) that they wanted to get back into the passion and grow by a percentage. And, people know that Toyota may not be like how they were before back 15-20 years but with the prices of petrol/gas/octane rising its understandable. Bringing back a sports car into the Toyota name wouldn't make the car a black sheep. It would simply state "Oh toyota finally making sports cars again." Toyota already had a couple oddballs they released. That Vienna for one. Thing looks disgusting! And the Solarace just looks strange all around.

Also.... saying that this car is going to "sell" big is an understatement. This car is ATTRACTING attention but will it sell? The sales figures will determine that. If you look around while driving, do you see many 10'-11' tC models around? You see a lot of 06-09 models cruising around than any other.

[VenomRush]

sure its my opinion, but you dont think its going to sell big?

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by Dimman

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=61

The site that I linked to has been completely revised, but those numbers are official Scion numbers.

And they're not pretty.

To respond to the post you linked, Saturn was created as a cheap fuel efficient brand. It wasn't until several years later that they started the Redline series and tried to make them Tuner Cars. Plus they were always pieces of junk, they got a bad rep from the begining and never were able to recover from that.

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

reminds me, iv been seeing less and less scions on the road these days and more Subarus and Hyundais.

Lol what you see around you doesn't represent anything.

When you talk about something you're more likely to notice it around you. Being on this site, what do you see come up a lot? Subaru and Hyundai.

People can buy cars and not drive them.

Originally Posted by VenomRush

since we are talking about image here, why havn't you guys mentiond TOYOTA's image now. Toyota's image is different now than it was 15-25 years ago. Toyota has something good going now with safe reliable great-gas mileage cars. i feel like if you have this car next to the rest of the toyota lineup, it'll clearly be the odd-ball blacksheep of the family. and thats something that toyota probably doesn't want(the image thing). and also lets be reasonable about this being the heart of the AE86.a small percentage of people in america will really give a shit that its "AE86 inspired" and those are the toyota lovers. im going to be honest, the first time i saw the AE86 was in a gran turismo game, and i thought it was a piece of shit cuz it didn't go fast. it wasn't till i learned of its iconic handling and balance till i began to appreciate the car. what im getting at is most people today wont take the time to learn the greatness of that formula that made it a special car and i gotta be honest, all that doesn't mean crap when it comes to the FR-S which is a new car. so, i think toyota is doing the right thing for america in putting it as a scion, dont agree with it but its the right thing mainly because they KNOW its going to sell big and scion needs a face lift. so whats the big deal??

Toyota is about Family Cars, Van, and Trucks now in America.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Subaru in North America.

Pre-WRX. Post-WRX. Compare.

I've said before, but what is the 'move-up' car for the FT86? It doesn't fit in the plan to get new people to the Toyota family. Where does a Scion FR-S owner go to after? Starting with a Scion tC and moving into a Toyota FT86 would fit with their plan better, don't you think?

The logical 'move-up' car the the FR-S is the 370Z. Especially considering how much these two are compared to each other here. Those that want a 370Z but can't afford it, may end up with an FR-S. Then when they are in a better financial position may move to the Z-car.

There's nothing in the Lexus marque either, short of the LFA, that suits a follow up to the FT86. IS-F MAYBE, but that's a huge price jump.

Back to the numbers, the Scion FR-S will not bring back the sales they enjoyed at their peak. Especially on its own sales, and not even on 'trickle-down' sales of tC's or whatever...

Where the Scion to Toyota strategy fails, is that the cars between the brands don't complement themselves. The strategy needs to be more complete for it to work. The FT86 as a Toyota would be a step in that direction.

You seem to be stuck on the idea that someone who "moves up" is automatically going to want a sports car.

Some people will want to move up to a bigger, more expensive sports car, but a lot of people are going to need a commuter car, a family mover, and a truck for hauling/towing. The logic Toyota is correctly applying is that people will tend to stick with a brand they know and like.

You have to remember the people on this website represent a very tiny slice of the population. Most people who own sports cars don't use them as their DD unless they can't afford a second car. Most people who do move up to affording more than one car tend to get something much more benign for that second car. Fuel Efficiency, comfort, and the ability to move more than 2 people become a priority.

I can't really comment on Pre/Post WRX Subaru other than I know when the Lancer and WRX came out everyone wanted them, but now they are so damn expensive they are hardly moving any. Probably part of the reason why Subaru formed this partnership with Toyota so they can have a cheaper Sports car to sell.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Scion is not moving cars, though.

Right now, and sales might continue to lag for awhile. But that's no reason to kill off the entire brand just yet.

Scion was never created to be a huge money maker for Toyota. They were designed to be a buzz word, get people talking. Do things outside of the Box that Toyota would feel too risky to do.

Also, let me point out that in order to buy a new Scion you have to go to a Scion/Toyota Dealer. A lot of people also get their cars serviced at the Dealers. So they get exposed to what's on the Toyota lot. When they are looking for a 4 door Sedan, they might have seen that new Camry a few times and would be more likely to go test drive one than maybe a Tarus which they hadn't seen before.

There's a lot of marketing going on here. Toyota is very good about growing future business and attracting customers.

[Dimman]

Also think about how boring Lexus' image was. But they are trying to shake things up with the IS-F, and obviously the LFA. (You could argue that they started back with the second-gen GS when they put the V8 in it and it was briefly the fastest production sedan in the world.)

Edit:

ToyotaObsession: The Subaru reference wasn't about sales numbers, it was about image. The WRX changed who would look at a Subaru as a potential buyer quite drastically. It used to be a car for upper-middle class former hippies who liked to ski. Geekier Japanese Hippy Volvo.

Also what is your opinion on the quote that I posted on the Scion execs claiming to be in a 'battle' with Toyota and needing to 're-educate' Toyota. Also look at the DRASTIC drop in Scion's sales.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Also think about how boring Lexus' image was. But they are trying to shake things up with the IS-F, and obviously the LFA. (You could argue that they started back with the second-gen GS when they put the V8 in it and it was briefly the fastest production sedan in the world.)

SC300/SC400?

I don't think you could call those cars boring. Granted not as exciting as the Soarer lol. But still respected cars in their own right.

[Giccin]

Originally Posted by VenomRush

sure its my opinion, but you dont think its going to sell big?

I think it'll sell moderately. It just won't be big enough to save them from the hole they're in.

Economy going to hell + insurance companies prices rising. It'll be tough to say it'll sell big.