FastLaneDaily talks about Scion's FRS

[RRnold]

Originally Posted by Dimman

It's about the bigger picture, but I swear they did a reasonable job of quickly summarizing a lot of our 'Scion or Not' arguments.

For the record I think it's a bad idea as a Scion. I don't see it saving the brand (iQ has a better shot, dead serious). I worry about what will happen to the future of the FT86 and Toyota sports cars if Scion ends up failing (the old guy made excellent points about how hard it is for 'corporate' to backtrack from a failing idea, it took bankruptcy for GM to admit that Saturn was worthless, and Scion has a lot of similarities to Saturn).

Exactly! :happy0180:

I don't understand how you guys can say they are douches when all of their points made perfect sense! Scion sales are down 65% for reason, the numbers don't lie...

Dude worked for Toyota till '95 and his reference to Toyota going towards the "GM" approach isn't a good idea. From a corporate level he saw it from the inside out. Think about the cars that Toyota released in the US during the late 90's till now. The MRS was a bust, so was the 7th Gen Celica!

Speaking of Saturn, that is like Chevy reviving an old classic and badging it a Saturn in order to spark up Saturn.

[Giccin]

Like I've said... Image nowadays has played a very important role in everything you do. From the way you dress, what you work as, where you went to school, how you act and in this situation--what you drive.

I know there are people out there who do not care about any of that and it is safe to say that it's silly to but, IMAGE IS AMERICA. I think people are forgetting that.

I'll give you guys a couple examples.

Back when you were in elementary/primary (public school) if you didn't wear the current trend (lets say pokemon shirt or at least had the cards) you were counted as the weird kid hence... the bullying.

In high school if you came with a old faded out shirt with checkered pants/shorts/trousers and steel boots you'd be that "weird kid" hence more bullying.

If you walked into a fancy restaurant wearing a t-shirt and some broad shorts you think they'd treat you differently? Of course they would. I'm not going to say that I'm defending this 'image' as a good thing but there is a bad side to it as well and thats what people are concerned about.

You drive this car because you love it. I agree. You drive the car because you shouldn't care what others think. I agree, but remember there are those who still live in that world 'image' matters and yes, the image of what you drive DOES matter whether you deny it or not. And as of right now, the scion image isn't the best thing out there to be wearing. Toyota f'd up by making a 3rd brand for the sports scene but this strategy has put them in a shithole, and by putting ANY sports car made into it is making a mistake. Having Tanner Foust drive a scion body doesn't change the scion image. Dragon driving his scion doesn't change the scion image. The vast majority of those who do drive the scion are those who are creating the scion's image and chizzling it into stone. The few who are very good at what they do to the scion CANNOT change the image that this brand holds. That little piece of plastic that is given to this car is a beautiful mask over a hideous face. No matter how much plastic surgery you give do.. It's still has that personality you can't change.


Marketing wise...
...And here's my 2¢. When SCION was created it should've been Toyota's line of different hybrid cars if ANYTHING. If Toyota were to NOT have created scion in general and just put the TC and all the other strange-looking cars INTO Toyota the image of toyota would've been "oh they're trying to get back into sports car but failed." That would be ok though since the Camry, Carolla, and Prius are still keeping Toyota financially stable. Now, if the ft86 came out as a Toyota the image of TRD would've been saved and the cars that didn't do well will discontinue (ie. The toyota 7th gen Celica).

Sorry for the long post but I seriously think... this is just a very poor marketing strategy for a failing economy.

**Had to edit this a couple times since I'm still feeling the effects of cinco de mayo**

[NikostC]

I watch the show everyday and I couldn't agree more. These guys know what they are talking about and know about racing. Even tho I drive a Scion I would much rather this car boost Toyota's Image and bring back the image Toyota created with the famous MR-2 and Supra instead of boosting a company that some people may not even know is part of Toyota! Which I know many people who do not know it is in fact Toyota.

EDIT: Toyota's mentality is "they will buy the FR-S and when they grow up, they will buy a Toyota or Lexus" Thats like saying people will buy a Ford Mustang and when they grow up they will get a Lincoln.
Enthusiasts will buy sporty cars all their life. (Atleast the people who I talk to at car meets say so) This car is supposed to be marketed toward previous owners of supra's, MR-2's, AE-86's and most sport cars in general.

[WingsofWar]

having to many cars under a single brand is also bad for business. A strategy to offset lost revenues and to avoid logistical fees is by splitting the company into sub-brands. So the company calls up the marketing department to make it work, marketing department makes up a proposal to the host company and says "HAY LETS MAKE A name THAT CATERS TO YOUTH!! OMGBBQ!!". Fast foward a few years...

Scion is now a North American Brand, that has its sights on the the american market. Here is the conflict, they are a trying to sell a name to an AMERICAN, as an AMERICAN culture car parent by Toyota, with none of the culture and finesse of Japan. Its like trying to sell a BMW built by Koreans.

Heres the problem with the Scion Branding;

1. Scions Target fleet is priced at a rough low income ($20kUSD) = Will reflect build quality of the entire car as a whole.

2. Scions Target consumer audience is youth = Higher insurance premium + Sports Car Premium (Bracket above sport compact). Will suck for buyers under 25 years old.

3. Scion is synonymous with current youthful culture = will suck for buyers over the age of 30 years old.

4. Scion FR-S, a north american design by 5-Axis vs FT86 a Japan/European design will have design variations and not be uniform on the global market = Tuners will likely outsource foreign OEM parts (shipping costs and another quest for overnight parts from Japan)

5. Scion already on shaky ground with very low sales, this could be good and bad. When and If scion crashes, any Scion FR-S will become hot commodity, and mint condition FR-S in 50 years will have a very high price / value. Bad for Toyota N/As future in bringing any other sports cars states side.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

In my head the idea of a luxury brand offshoot makes sense, because luxury cars in my mind are a distinct superclass of their own, and brand image is something that does matter to luxury car buyers.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by kawazydude

of course, i understand toyota's effort to try to save one of their brands -- it's business after all. but therein lies the problem: the otherwise perfect FRS was badged a scion not as a result of toyota's love for cars, but toyota's business interests. that to me detracts from the very message toyota is trying to send with this car, that toyota is still passionate about cars.

but i still love the FRS, and more likely than not, i'll probably buy it (unless subie's version blows scion's out of the water). but am i sad about its branding as a scion? you bet.

Excellently put. This is what I've been trying to get across since this scion thing was just a rumor.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by cyde01

a lot of people compare Scion to Hyundai in a way to say there's nothing wrong with Scion, but how about comparing Hyundai to Toyota? Hyundai created an exciting sports car in the Genesis coupe and luxury sedans like the Equus and Genesis sedan without having to create a separate "youth brand" like Scion or luxury brand like Lexus. as a result, the Hyundai brand is starting to rival the Toyota brand's prestige, while Toyota has become more like GM when they sucked.

Hyundai also doesn't have the lineup that Toyota has.

Hyundai has 9 Cars and SUV's. While Toyota has 17 Cars, Trucks, and SUV's.

Hyundai may one day add a new brand to help diversify their lineups and separate them. Right now Hyundai is using the Genesis and Equus to try and brand it's whole image. While Toyota uses it's brands to it's advantage to shore up their images.

Hyundai is not rivaling Toyota's Prestige. But they are starting to rival it's image of Reliability. Most people don't think of the Equus or Genesis when they think Hyundai. But people who care about cars are starting too.

Toyota is no where near GM, nor will they ever be. GM still sucks lol.

Brands like Scion and Lexus are about marketing nothing more. The underpinnings are still all Toyota.

[Flip]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

5. Scion already on shaky ground with very low sales, this could be good and bad. When and If scion crashes, any Scion FR-S will become hot commodity, and mint condition FR-S in 50 years will have a very high price / value. Bad for Toyota N/As future in bringing any other sports cars states side.

Your other points are legit, but not sure about this one. The car will only be a Scion in the US, so if Scion fails (and honestly I think this car will sell like crazy, so I'm sure Scion will be okay), Toyota can always bring it to the US as a Toyota as it's a Toyota everywhere else anyway.

[Random_Art]

I thought about this for a bit. When you look at GM and the Sky/Solstice cars, they were only out for a couple years before GM folded both Saturn and Pontiac and killed off one of the few cars I actually would have bought from them. Hopefully Toyota does simply rebadge it as a Toyota if Scion folds, rather than killing it completely

[xantonin]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Excellently put. This is what I've been trying to get across since this scion thing was just a rumor.

I agree. But I think the truth is that Toyota USA is about Business and Toyota JP/Global is about passion.

This is where Toyota HQ needs to come up to Toyota USA and tell them what to do. Which will never happen.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by NikostC

I watch the show everyday and I couldn't agree more. These guys know what they are talking about and know about racing. Even tho I drive a Scion I would much rather this car boost Toyota's Image and bring back the image Toyota created with the famous MR-2 and Supra instead of boosting a company that some people may not even know is part of Toyota! Which I know many people who do not know it is in fact Toyota.

EDIT: Toyota's mentality is "they will buy the FR-S and when they grow up, they will buy a Toyota or Lexus" Thats like saying people will buy a Ford Mustang and when they grow up they will get a Lincoln.
Enthusiasts will buy sporty cars all their life. (Atleast the people who I talk to at car meets say so) This car is supposed to be marketed toward previous owners of supra's, MR-2's, AE-86's and most sport cars in general.

That's not entirely true. Mustangs are actually marketed at 30+ Men as a second car.

But it is a proven fact that what brands people buy or are around when they are young they tend to buy when they get older. So many of the people that grow up around Fords when they get old and want a soft, plushy car will get a Lincoln.

Enthusiasts people may be, but you can't base facts on less than 1% of the population. Even the most diehard gearhead might start a family and have to think about how he'll get a wife and 2 kids around. Suddenly a 2 seater sports car just isn't practical. Most will try to find a way to keep it and get a second car. But many people can't afford that. In which case they will be more likely to buy from a brand they know and trust.

You also have to remember, they won't sell that many of these cars in the overall scheme of things. But it will create a certain image in people's minds that Scion is a sporty brand.

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

having to many cars under a single brand is also bad for business. A strategy to offset lost revenues and to avoid logistical fees is by splitting the company into sub-brands. So the company calls up the marketing department to make it work, marketing department makes up a proposal to the host company and says "HAY LETS MAKE A name THAT CATERS TO YOUTH!! OMGBBQ!!". Fast foward a few years...

Scion is now a North American Brand, that has its sights on the the american market. Here is the conflict, they are a trying to sell a name to an AMERICAN, as an AMERICAN culture car parent by Toyota, with none of the culture and finesse of Japan. Its like trying to sell a BMW built by Koreans.

Not only caters to Youth, but is cheap. Scions main goal was to have a lineup that starts out under $20K. They have done that. Get someone hooked on the cheap ones, and once they see what high quality they are they are willing to spend more later on.

And so far they have done an excellent job of selling a Name to AMERICANS. Lexus and Toyota are both nothing but names that have done exceptionally well.

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

Heres the problem with the Scion Branding;

1. Scions Target fleet is priced at a rough low income ($20kUSD) = Will reflect build quality of the entire car as a whole.

2. Scions Target consumer audience is youth = Higher insurance premium + Sports Car Premium (Bracket above sport compact). Will suck for buyers under 25 years old.

3. Scion is synonymous with current youthful culture = will suck for buyers over the age of 30 years old.

4. Scion FR-S, a north american design by 5-Axis vs FT86 a Japan/European design will have design variations and not be uniform on the global market = Tuners will likely outsource foreign OEM parts (shipping costs and another quest for overnight parts from Japan)

5. Scion already on shaky ground with very low sales, this could be good and bad. When and If scion crashes, any Scion FR-S will become hot commodity, and mint condition FR-S in 50 years will have a very high price / value. Bad for Toyota N/As future in bringing any other sports cars states side.

Do you have any data to back up the low sales claim? I've heard they are down about 30% overall. But I don't have time right now to look it up.

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Agreed.


Excellently put. This is what I've been trying to get across since this scion thing was just a rumor.

I think you guys are trying to correlate something that just isn't there.

Toyota in the end is all about making money. That's the only purpose of the company.

They are not trying to save Scion. Anybody who knows anything about cars knows you don't save a brand with a Sports Car. Sports car sales have always been historically low because they are fun to drive and can't do much else. If they were worried about Scion going under, it would have been badged a Toyota.

So to say that Toyota has lost it's passion for Cars because they made a marketing decision to brand it a Scion is just ludicrous. They are still making the car, they car is going to have the same exact specs just a different name on the front.

They are still making it in the end. Which means they must still care on some level.

Originally Posted by xantonin

I agree. But I think the truth is that Toyota USA is about Business and Toyota JP/Global is about passion.

This is where Toyota HQ needs to come up to Toyota USA and tell them what to do. Which will never happen.

It's all about Business. The Japanese Culture is all about perfection and seriousness. They don't mess around.

The idea that Toyota Japan is about passion and not Business is just funny to me. You don't become the #1 Car Maker in the world because you like building cars. You do it because you want your business to be the best. Everything they do is about making the brand better as a whole.

Unlike GM who simply did anything they could to gain every slice of market share they could.

If you don't think that Toyota HQ isn't in complete control over everything you don't know the Japanese Culture.

This entire thing is a Business decision, and from the sheer amount of talking people are doing it was a good one.

[kawazydude]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

They are not trying to save Scion. Anybody who knows anything about cars knows you don't save a brand with a Sports Car. Sports car sales have always been historically low because they are fun to drive and can't do much else. If they were worried about Scion going under, it would have been badged a Toyota.

"Saving" a brand means more than simply boosting its sales figure - it's about boosting its brand image. Given how amazing the FRS looks, no one denies the FRS will do just that, especially since the entire purpose of the car was to bring passion and excitement back into Toyota cars. But that's again why I'm so frustrated with Toyota USA's decision (thanks for pointing that out Xantonin): the purpose of the FRS/FT-86 was to boost Toyota's image in being able to make exciting sports cars again b/c of its lack of such cars in the past decade. Yet, Toyota USA thought it better to give the beautiful FT-86 to Scion. Why? Well, I think most would agree (including the two guys in the youtube video I posted) that it's because Scion was in greater need of an image booster than Toyota. Sure, there are no official reports from the company stating this, but honestly, would anyone ever expect a company to come forth and say this? I think we can all agree that the FRS is definitely meant to save, or at least significantly help, Scion's image and sales.

Now, I hope somebody doesn't then say, "But Scion is part of Toyota, so why would giving the FT-86 to Scion not also boost Toyota's image as a whole?" Well, it's b/c what we're talking about right now is the image of the respective brands as separate entities. If you don't understand this, then think about why most people still don't know that Scion is actually a Toyota brand, and let that answer your question my friend.

[linkwpc]

I think these guys are right. For me, there is no way I would buy a Scion. Toyota ok, Subaru ok. Scion no way. The brand is important to me. When I think of Scion, I do not think of sports car what so ever. I think of 16, 17 year girls car. When I think of Toyota, I can think of the supra or the MR2. Scion is the wrong way to go.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Do you have any data to back up the low sales claim? I've heard they are down about 30% overall. But I don't have time right now to look it up.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=61

The site that I linked to has been completely revised, but those numbers are official Scion numbers.

And they're not pretty.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by Dimman

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=61

The site that I linked to has been completely revised, but those numbers are official Scion numbers.

And they're not pretty.

reminds me, iv been seeing less and less scions on the road these days and more Subarus and Hyundais.