How to drive on a road coarse?

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

The only useful thing GT/Forza can teach a person - is how to find the through the corners. Their tire/damage model is very misleading and dangerous. So all in all, even though learning the fast line might be usefull at some point, I'd be recommend that anyone about to start tracking their car completely purge everything they know from GT/F games.

iRacing is a lot more useful though. A lot more realistic tire model, and will fairly accurately represent how easy it is to stuff it into the wall and how hard it is to catch a car if one pushes too hard.

iRacing is a fantastic game but it is unrealistically hard, in my opinion. If it teaches you about as much about losing control as forza/gt does about maintaining it. I have done many laps around Mosport in a real car without going off the track, but I spent an hour in iracing flying off every single turn before I finally got a clean lap in (in a Mazda Miata), and when I did it was slower then what I could do in my old shitty volkswagen.

Anyway, I never said that GT is the best, but unlike iracing it has a very good tutorial that allows quick practice. "the line" is actually very important and I'm surprised why you would dismiss it as such. To get gold medals in GT you pretty much have to get pretty close to perfect, and you can only do that once you understand in your head what to do.. corner entry, apex, corner exit, transition etc etc.

The OP came off as a complete noob. I've had complete noobs handed to me in our annual driving schools and it’s a bother explaining the fundementals to someone as they are driving fast and not paying attention to you. I've had to slow people down or even drive them into the pits just to get them to pay attention. Having a playstation handy would have been awesome because a good number of people are visual/tactile learners... hell I'm one of them.

It's like explaining gravity, you can write v=m*a, or whatever, on a piece of paper, and show it to me, but you will have a much easier time taking an apple and letting it fall from your hand.

Video games are a very fun and engaging way to get people to THINK about the problem.

GT/Forza are real enough to explain the basics, like highschool. iRacing is college.

baby steps

[BadCompany235]

the best thing you can do is not to drive alone if this is your very first time. there are all kinds of anxiety involved with being on track for the first time. if you have someone with you that can calm you down and make sure you don't over drive you'll pick it up. they should also be able to help you with the line. the line is important because you get the most feedback about what you're doing. only so much speed in the corners on the correct line. also you wont kill your tires overdriving. the line is normally the smoothest way around the track. don't worry about being fast for now. just have fun and be willing to learn. trail braking isn't as hard as everyone makes it out to be, but be aware that this car does rotate very well and if you are uncomfortable doing too many things at once take it slow and focus on driving clean and slow. i've had laps that felt slow be as quick as laps i felt i worked for. keep it clean and you'll be fine.

[samsam5886]

I also recommend Speed Secrets

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

Anyway, I never said that GT is the best, but unlike iracing it has a very good tutorial that allows quick practice. "the line" is actually very important and I'm surprised why you would dismiss it as such.

To be quick in GT5 you have to push track boundaries to the max. So, it's a very bad mindset to have when starting to track the car IRL.

iRacing will teach one to have a margin of safety, while trying to have a good line through corners. So I think it's a better prep for a real day at the track.

[Texas BRZ]

Figured I could definitely use the extra knowledge & help, therefore I followed the smart advice in this thread and picked this up from my local bookstore last night:

[rice_classic]

If anyone tells you that racing Simulators (Forza, GT, iRacing) aren't any help regarding racing or tracking your car, they're wrong. There's a reason professionals use them to stay sharp.

They can teach a beginner:
-The line
-Braking technique principles (braking straight, trail braking, downshifting etc)
-Looking for markers (braking markers, landmarks, apex, track out etc)
-Proper correction in oversteer or when setting 2 tires off the pavement.

They can help an intermediate track junky or racer:
-Race craft: How to use the draft, follow closely and cleanly, setup the pass, over/under etc.
-The importance of a good start
-Consistency
-Minimizing mistakes.

The other most important thing to note with playing these games/simulators is to use them appropriately. Perfect practice makes perfect. Don't play the game with all the nannies on. Turn Sim tires on, turn ABS/TCS off and drive with a manual and clutch (requires you to reprogram buttons on controller for Forza).

My very first track day ever was at Laguna Seca in a 180HP vtec CRX. I played GT3 for months before I went there in a similar HP Civic Hatch I built in the game. My real life lap times were within 3 seconds of my virtual lap times. My instructors were pretty impressed and let me run the last half of the day by myself and even give a ride-along to a vet who asked me for advice. (but it was about how to heel-toe).

This is talked about in the Speed Secrets books (and I'm proof that it's true). Building the pathways between brain cells creates that "2nd nature" computing power in your brain regardless if it's done so with the virtual world or the real world. The ability to anticipate corrections, corners, race traffic, over-steer etc can be "pre-programmed" into your brain before you ever set foot on the track. Sure, the noise and the G-forces and the heat will be different but the core technique will be there.

Also Google the 10,000 hour rule. It's said that we need to something for 10,000 in order to truly master it. The simulators can help you "get in your hours", to an extent (they can't do it all).

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by fastmike

Who not to be..
FM

[dsgerbc]

Professionals use GT/Forza? Tell me more.

Like I said, iRacing is on a whole other level. This is the sim I'd recommend cause it's a lot more accurate.

These GT/Forza-trained drivers often end-up in the walls on the Ring. Cause they think they know the track when in fact gt5/Forza are very poor at representing bumps/elevation changes/load transfer etc.

Instinctive reactions to oversteer one picks up in GT5/Forza may very well end-up exacerbating the spin on a real track.

Don't get me wrong, I like these games, they have their entertainment value. And I'm moderately fast in gt5. But whenever I go to a real track I try hard to consciously clear my mind from any bad habits I picked up in GT5. Because there is a big and costly difference between "minimizing mistakes" and "eliminating them".

10k hours of doing something tangentially related to activity X doesn't help you truly master it. And could actually hurt you.

And again - there are a few useful things one can learn from games, but a mindset "play a bunch of games and you'll be fast and regulars will praise you and ask for advice" is very dangerous.

[rice_classic]

You missed the point.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

Professionals use GT/Forza? Tell me more.

Like I said, iRacing is on a whole other level. This is the sim I'd recommend cause it's a lot more accurate.

I'd recommend the same, for those than can afford it but GT and Forza do a good job. Remember that Microsoft helped develop the ECU progamming used by the F1 teams for their cars through a relationship with Maclaren. Turn10, utilized this relationship and Maclaren shared a bunch of their CFD data helping Turn 10 drastically improve the physics of F4. But I digress.

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

These GT/Forza-trained drivers often end-up in the walls on the Ring. Cause they think they know the track when in fact gt5/Forza are very poor at representing bumps/elevation changes/load transfer etc.

Well, this GT/Forza trained driver is working on his 2nd championship. I'm not advocating Forza to teach you how to drive. Please re-read my post. GT/Forza/iRacing can help improve "core" techniques, awareness, responses and other inputs.

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

Instinctive reactions to oversteer one picks up in GT5/Forza may very well end-up exacerbating the spin on a real track.

Please re-read my post. I said: "Perfect practice makes perfect". What you say only holds true if people are practicing wrong to begin with. The game can teach people how to setup their cars for under/over-steer, corrections etc. If you're not practicing correctly virtually, you can't be expected to execute in the real world. Also to qualify these games aren't for teaching people how to drive but the other techniques or lessons that are needed when out on track.

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

But whenever I go to a real track I try hard to consciously clear my mind from any bad habits I picked up in GT5. Because there is a big and costly difference between "minimizing mistakes" and "eliminating them".

Mistakes cannot be eliminated in racing. Period. Also, why are you practicing bad habits in GT5?

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

10k hours of doing something tangentially related to activity X doesn't help you truly master it. And could actually hurt you.

If we were comparing guitar hero to actually playing a guitar I would agree, but we aren't. If you're putting in the time correctly practicing something it will pay off. It isn't the same as practicing in the actual car but the synapses you build in your brain can't tell the difference. There's LOADS of research on this.

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

And again - there are a few useful things one can learn from games, but a mindset "play a bunch of games and you'll be fast and regulars will praise you and ask for advice" is very dangerous.

Again, please re-read post. Not ever did I say "Play games, be fast!" I said that they can help and build 2nd nature responses. Again, you have to practice correctly regardless of the game, regardless of the SIM.

[rice_classic]

I know I spelled Mclaren wrong.

[Vracer111]

Racing sims are great to learn consistency and proper technique. You can also use the datalogging features on some to find out where you could improve lap times theoretically trying different techniques/methods (GTR2 with MoTec logging is great at this...). It's not the same as real life but it's good mental practice and great for the basics.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Well, this GT/Forza trained driver is working on his 2nd championship.

You are confusing natural talent/ability with what those games gave you.

Those are games, people play those to win. To win on those games = pick-up techniques that are dangerous in real-life gaming.

If you purposefully and consciously use the game to get practice with only a few things - it could be useful, but almost nobody every does that. Cause if you are purposefully training yourself - you better get a proper tool, which won't be GT/Forza. It will be iracing.
Basically, GT/Forza - game. Play it. iRacing - sim, use it as such.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

You are confusing natural talent/ability with what those games gave you.

At this point I feel like you're trolling but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I am not confusing anything. There is no default result. Play game- become great race car driver is indeed a false correlation. This is your argument and I agree. My argument is; take "game/sim" and use it properly in a manner that is most accurate to the real world and it will produce benefit.

Sims are a tool. Like any tool, they need to be used correctly to produce the desired result. I specifically use the word sim and not game because there's very little that can be learned from Need For Speed. GT/Forza aren't on the same level as iRacing but they shouldn't be completely discounted, they are rather advanced. I feel the physics in Forza 4 are superior to GT and just slightly below iRacing, if not on par in some cases, after all they did use Mclaren's CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics).

If anyone would like advice on how to use GT/Forza/iRacing properly to help them improve their skills/racecraft or what types of lessons can be learned feel free to PM me. I'm all for helping people grow their competency on track, heck it's kind of what I do for a living.