FR-S vs. 370z, end all be all of discussions

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by blur

I want to boost the FRS when I get it but keep it conservative to retain a quick spool and throttle response.

I don't want to rain on your parade but won't most of this depend on how the engine is designed/tuned by Toyota/Subaru? Unless you have a ton of $$$, the engine could turn out difficult to mod "safely" with a turbo. Obviously "safely" is a relative word and it depends how much work you will put into the engine.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

You are missing the point.

I keep it simple by having but one point. "Show him the tail lights". And in the number of races I've been involved in, track or no track, FWD or not, I've held my own against AWD and RWD cars.

Originally Posted by blur

How well does boost translate to track performance if tuned correctly? I want to boost the FRS when I get it but keep it conservative to retain a quick spool and throttle response.

That and aren't you gonna get massive torque steer?

PS: make a build thread here!

The turbine has to be properly sized according to the actual engine itself. My old turbo was a 16G as mentioned. On such a small turbine the spool was damn near instantaneous and full boost was realized around 2600rpms. Small turbo on a 2.4L engine produced a peaky response. My torque curve was shaped like "^". All the peak torque real low and it was like slamming your ass in the seat. That was great on the street. By the time the other guy was ready, I was already gone. The trade off on that turbo was the top end was stellar. You took off early (even though my top end was stronger than say an Evo 9 MR), it was not as strong in terms of say another tC with a little larger turbine.

That kind of turbo would be troublesome on an AutoX course or a track as on corner exit or in low gears you would do burn outs. At 12lbs of boost even on a 20G (upgraded from a 16), I could roll into 3rd gear at 40 mph and simply light up the tires until 70mph. It's to peaky for anything other than the drag strip and street races.

For a road course you want a less "violent" turbine with a flat torque curve and smooth power climb instead of a smaller turbo that's more like "BAM BOOST". The larger turbo may feel slower because of the not so violent smooth climb, but that's an illusion. The top end will be greater but your trade off is a slower spool. Here is where you decide if you are satisfied with a Journal turbo or do you want to shell out a little extra for Ball Bearing. BB is a beautiful thing because it will give you back that quick spool, still a smooth power curve and still have a greater top end than a smaller turbo.

My new turbo setup is a Dual BB GT3076R.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

I keep it simple by having but one point. "Show him the tail lights". And in the number of races I've been involved in, track or no track, FWD or not, I've held my own against AWD and RWD cars.





The turbine has to be properly sized according to the actual engine itself. My old turbo was a 16G as mentioned. On such a small turbine the spool was damn near instantaneous and full boost was realized around 2600rpms. Small turbo on a 2.4L engine produced a peaky response. My torque curve was shaped like "^". All the peak torque real low and it was like slamming your ass in the seat. That was great on the street. By the time the other guy was ready, I was already gone. The trade off on that turbo was the top end was stellar. You took off early (even though my top end was stronger than say an Evo 9 MR), it was not as strong in terms of say another tC with a little larger turbine.

That kind of turbo would be troublesome on an AutoX course or a track as on corner exit or in low gears you would do burn outs. At 12lbs of boost even on a 20G (upgraded from a 16), I could roll into 3rd gear at 40 mph and simply light up the tires until 70mph. It's to peaky for anything other than the drag strip and street races.

For a road course you want a less "violent" turbine with a flat torque curve and smooth power climb instead of a smaller turbo that's more like "BAM BOOST". The larger turbo may feel slower because of the not so violent smooth climb, but that's an illusion. The top end will be greater but your trade off is a slower spool. Here is where you decide if you are satisfied with a Journal turbo or do you want to shell out a little extra for Ball Bearing. BB is a beautiful thing because it will give you back that quick spool, still a smooth power curve and still have a greater top end than a smaller turbo.

My new turbo setup is a Dual BB GT3076R.

You don't run into this problem with N/A tuning.

/war has started.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

You don't run into this problem with N/A tuning.

/war has started.

Naw you just run into the problem of being slow......lol. I kid. If it can come alive like say the S2k then N/A might be awesome on this one. But if they max out the engine in N/A tuning from the factory, then bolt-ons will be pointless.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Naw you just run into the problem of being slow......lol. I kid. If it can come alive like say the S2k then N/A might be awesome on this one. But if they max out the engine in N/A tuning from the factory, then bolt-ons will be pointless.

I don't think they'll do that....as this car is supposed to be, partly, marketed for the people that do mod and tune their cars after purchase.

[blur]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

For a road course you want a less "violent" turbine with a flat torque curve and smooth power climb instead of a smaller turbo that's more like "BAM BOOST". The larger turbo may feel slower because of the not so violent smooth climb, but that's an illusion. The top end will be greater but your trade off is a slower spool. Here is where you decide if you are satisfied with a Journal turbo or do you want to shell out a little extra for Ball Bearing. BB is a beautiful thing because it will give you back that quick spool, still a smooth power curve and still have a greater top end than a smaller turbo.

Wouldn't that produce lag in lower RPMs, when youre accelerating out of the corner? Oh and turbo size dictates torque curve only, or hp too?

yay boost 101

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by fatoni

thats literally all it does. when you push you wheel in or out it changes the ratio between how much the spring compresses in relation to how much the tire moves

It only has an effect on the ratio if it's a swing axle or single lower A-arm. (Quick, name a modern car that uses either!)

Dragon's car uses front MacStruts and rear multilink suspension. MacStruts have no leverage effect, and the multilink leverage is based on the distances between the lower upright-side pivot, the pivot where the shock mounts to the link, and the chassis-side pivot. So offset has nothing to do with that.

It does have an effect on scrub radius, affects (wider or narrower depending on offset) the track which in-turn can affect weight transfer.

As for this:

Originally Posted by fatoni

im curious to see the benefits to a fwd car of a giant gt wing

Are you implying that a FWD car cannot benefit from a large rear wing?

But if you are genuinely curious about his wing, whether it is FWD or RWD or AWD is irrelevant. Wings are not for putting power down, (except in extreme cases, like top level drag racing, World of Outlaws, Pikes Peak cars) they are for increasing tire grip at speed. In track type situations this is to maintain corner speed, which is limited for the most part by lateral grip.

If you look at Dragon's car in his sig, you will also see that he has a significant splitter. This combined with the big rear wing shows that he's concerned about the balance of the downforce generated (or lift canceled) which is important for controlling how much his car over/understeers in higher speed corners with the extra grip. That is what aero is for.

His suspension, tire, aero, motor, etc... choices are likely based on proven settings/results from other higher-level tC racers.

My god, I can't believe I'm defending Dragon and the tC...

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

I don't think they'll do that....as this car is supposed to be, partly, marketed for the people that do mod and tune their cars after purchase.

Yeah I was speaking on how well it performs N/A after some N/A mods. If they leave room to grow N/A, and an exhaust will actually yield worthy enough gain to justify the price, then it will be nice to see some screaming N/A's.

Originally Posted by blur

Wouldn't that produce lag in lower RPMs, when youre accelerating out of the corner? Oh and turbo size dictates torque curve only, or hp too?

yay boost 101

Combating lag can be done in a couple of ways.

- Proper turbine size (A little lag can be good for traction. I forget who, but a famous race car driver spoke the words "If you want instant traction, then never drop below peak torque". Not word for word, but to that effect. So, race above peak torque and you retain your best traction situation). So, with a proper turbine size, you can get the right power band (matching a turbo that will generate a flat torque curve with tuning) and still spool adequately. When you have a shelf (flat) torque curve, then you have the best means to put the power to the ground. HP is a gradual steady climb, so it isn't the amount of HP that breaks your traction, it's the Peak Torque that breaks traction. With a smooth transition into boost and a flat torque curve, you have the best method of controlling the throttle and maintaining traction. This is Road Course tuning, it is different for different disciplines and you may want the car to be tuned differently for say Drifting.

- Anti-Lag (built into your EMS, simply put as you exit a corner, the EMS will send ign cuts, which in turn cause the turbine to stay spinning higher). That's a dry cut explanation and may not be 100% detailed but you get the idea.

Then there is the drag strip. If you go up against a guy with a smaller turbo, he is going to get off the line and hit full boost faster than you if you are running a larger turbo. To combat this, you have two-step. Two-step launch control spools the turbine while you are sitting at the line. Can't spool a turbo by free-reving it.

And yea size of turbine wheels, compressor housings, A/R all that have an effect on the amount of power a turbine will max out at. You have to match a flow chart for the turbine to your engines size in order to produce an effective turbo combination. This is how manufactures pick turbos to include in their packages when they put together kits. Everyone knows a GT35R is a bad ass turbo. But you can't throw a GT35R onto ANY car and think it's going to be efficient, just because it's a GT35R. Some cases it may be to big, other cases it may be to small. You have to map it out on the flow chart for your engine size to see where it will fall on the efficiency scale.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Dimman

It only has an effect on the ratio if it's a swing axle or single lower A-arm. (Quick, name a modern car that uses either!)

Dragon's car uses front MacStruts and rear multilink suspension. MacStruts have no leverage effect, and the multilink leverage is based on the distances between the lower upright-side pivot, the pivot where the shock mounts to the link, and the chassis-side pivot. So offset has nothing to do with that.

It does have an effect on scrub radius, affects (wider or narrower depending on offset) the track which in-turn can affect weight transfer.

As for this:




Are you implying that a FWD car cannot benefit from a large rear wing?

But if you are genuinely curious about his wing, whether it is FWD or RWD or AWD is irrelevant. Wings are not for putting power down, (except in extreme cases, like top level drag racing, World of Outlaws, Pikes Peak cars) they are for increasing tire grip at speed. In track type situations this is to maintain corner speed, which is limited for the most part by lateral grip.

If you look at Dragon's car in his sig, you will also see that he has a significant splitter. This combined with the big rear wing shows that he's concerned about the balance of the downforce generated (or lift canceled) which is important for controlling how much his car over/understeers in higher speed corners with the extra grip. That is what aero is for.

His suspension, tire, aero, motor, etc... choices are likely based on proven settings/results from other higher-level tC racers.

My god, I can't believe I'm defending Dragon and the tC...

You sir are on the FING mark bro... Even if you don't like tC's or Scion's, much My club members kinda hazed me when I dropped the wing on even though I wasn't back on boost yet. They mentioned that it would create to much downforce and I didn't have the power to overcome the drag on the straights and thus causing me to run slow. They changed their minds though when they rode shotgun with me at the track.

On the front straight at my local track, we use part of the Nascar oval. As you transition off the oval back into the road course, turn 1 is a long left sweeper. MANY guys break on the oval and enter the transition into turn one at a slower rate of speed. As I am coming off the oval, I am around 110-115mph on the stock hp (more power and you can see 120-160mph). I don't brake on the oval. This is only possible with Aero on the tC. My club members all have tCs and they can't brake or not brake where I can.

The other thing is Aero helps in the braking zone to slow you down as well as through the high speed sections. Where some may need to brake to setup for the turn, I can simply lift throttle and not need to brake. Carrying momentum into the chicane with stability due to the Aero. Talking with Chris Rado, I asked why he mounted the wing onto the outside edges of the trunk rather than the trunk itself. They were running a carbon hatch, and the downforce generated would break the hatch. Also, where the wing is mounted when they had it, and also where it's mounted presently on mine, it's going to send feedback more directly into the chassis rather than into the hatch. The hatch flexes and therefore does not transfer that energy immediately into the chassis. I've seen wings on track cars mounted directly to the trunk/hatch and you can see where the hatch has actually become damaged (bent) from the downforce being generated. I don't have that issue. At the same time, I can only open my hatch half-way without taking the wing off...LOL. The only other alternative to direct chassis feedback is to send the post of the wing through the body and actually attach it directly inside to the chassis. Now that's REAL direct.

I fabricated plates just like Rado had on their tC. I got slabs of aluminum from Home Depot and shaped them and Riveted them into the body.






This is what it looked like when it was on Rado's tC before they changed the body/wing setup.




"cough" "cough" those are 295 wide slicks mounted to 17x10 HRE 545's. That combination with the wide body has sustained 180+mph and 900whp.

Let's just say I started my new job today and looking real soon to be picking the parts bin from World Racing (Chris Rado) and going thrift shopping real soon..

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Dimman

It only has an effect on the ratio if it's a swing axle or single lower A-arm. (Quick, name a modern car that uses either!)

Dragon's car uses front MacStruts and rear multilink suspension. MacStruts have no leverage effect, and the multilink leverage is based on the distances between the lower upright-side pivot, the pivot where the shock mounts to the link, and the chassis-side pivot. So offset has nothing to do with that.

It does have an effect on scrub radius, affects (wider or narrower depending on offset) the track which in-turn can affect weight transfer.

As for this:




Are you implying that a FWD car cannot benefit from a large rear wing?

But if you are genuinely curious about his wing, whether it is FWD or RWD or AWD is irrelevant. Wings are not for putting power down, (except in extreme cases, like top level drag racing, World of Outlaws, Pikes Peak cars) they are for increasing tire grip at speed. In track type situations this is to maintain corner speed, which is limited for the most part by lateral grip.

If you look at Dragon's car in his sig, you will also see that he has a significant splitter. This combined with the big rear wing shows that he's concerned about the balance of the downforce generated (or lift canceled) which is important for controlling how much his car over/understeers in higher speed corners with the extra grip. That is what aero is for.

His suspension, tire, aero, motor, etc... choices are likely based on proven settings/results from other higher-level tC racers.

My god, I can't believe I'm defending Dragon and the tC...

i was under the impression that the wheel rate might not change provided you have equal and parallel but as you stray from that offset becomes a factor. a change in offset is going to change wheel movement : shock movement. if thats not the case i would love an explanation.

and it wasnt an attack on the giant wing, i was just curious to see how he came to the conclusion that it was useful. its kinda one of those things where it comes down to drag vs grip in being the limiting factor in high speed corners

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i was under the impression that the wheel rate might not change provided you have equal and parallel but as you stray from that offset becomes a factor. a change in offset is going to change wheel movement : shock movement. if thats not the case i would love an explanation.

and it wasnt an attack on the giant wing, i was just curious to see how he came to the conclusion that it was useful. its kinda one of those things where it comes down to drag vs grip in being the limiting factor in high speed corners

I'll try to diagram something in MS Paint tomorrow...

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I'll try to diagram something in MS Paint tomorrow...

cool thanks

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i was under the impression that the wheel rate might not change provided you have equal and parallel but as you stray from that offset becomes a factor. a change in offset is going to change wheel movement : shock movement. if thats not the case i would love an explanation.

and it wasnt an attack on the giant wing, i was just curious to see how he came to the conclusion that it was useful. its kinda one of those things where it comes down to drag vs grip in being the limiting factor in high speed corners

Lift throttle oversteer and snap-steering oversteer are aa couple of terms you will becomes familiar with real quick when you start track racing. The false and inaccurate way to describe a wing is to say "its needed to be able to put the power down over the drive wheels". That is wrong. Aero is there for "stability".

In a FWD car you do everything.g to combat understeer like most cars come with from the factory. This is done by having a stiffer rear swaybar, adding LSD, wider front tires, negative camber...etc..etc. when you do this you have now changed the dynamics of the front end causong the rear now to be unbalanced. The rear now begins to float or have a floaty feel. In comes the wing to cancel that and return "stability" into the car. You can't turn and brake at the same time withought proper downforce. Weight transfer initiated by doing that will cause a snap-steer and potential overcorrection sending your ass into the wall. However with proper downforce, the rear is in check and will prevent the suspension from unloading on you to much, thus giving you the ability to do this and carry the speed into and out of corners.

[blur]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Let's just say I started my new job today and looking real soon to be picking the parts bin from World Racing (Chris Rado) and going thrift shopping real soon..

What are you planning on getting?

You really need a build thread, lol.