FR-S vs. 370z, end all be all of discussions

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by DesertSpool

Ahhhh.....So now you're buying USED parts AND installing them yourself.....no opportunity cost there either.

So captain, I missed the part where $3k will beat a WRX? I mean, since we're buying used parts.....AND installing stuff ourselves....I image we could get well into 350whp+ on the WRX. Your FWD Tc pushing those numbers too?

You said $3k into it. There was no stipulation on the parts whatsoever. This is what it's like to put your foot in your mouth and then start adding details onto that when you don't know what you are talking about. That's called "Back Pedaling".

Instead of continuing the off-topic comments, I'll continue it with you through PM's.



PS...would take about 400whp in the WRX to keep up with me.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Can you read? I said if you were to buy it NEW $3-5k TOTAL for the turbo setup. If you were to get a used setup then $1500-2000 for a well conditioned one, leaving money left over for a set of coilovers and tires. Hell I might even be able to squeeze an LSD into the trans. That would wipe a mud hole in those cars listed.

I don't speak from theory, I speak from experience.

And yes "CHEIF" I install my own shit. If I were to just street tune it, it still would be good enough to walk those cars. If I were to do a pro tune it would be around $500 for a tune.

And the other part you missed is that I owned a 350z as well. I know what it cost to mod them. You have to remove the motor to drop a set of Twin snails in it. That kinda put a bad taste in my mouth on boosting my Z as I didn't want a single. On the tC, shit is right there up front. And after racing my tC at just 8lbs of boost on a small ass 16G turbo against my 350z and watching the tC put bus lengths on it, it put an even bigger taste in my mouth and I soon understood that the Z is just to heavy.

My Z had Stg. 2 Clutch/light flywheel, APS test pipes, Tein-Stechs, K&N drop in filter and some different tires as I was using it for drifting. I stuck to drifting with that car as I didn't feel it was fast enough without a crap load of money into it anywhere else. I did beat a couple SRT-4's with it (one Stg 2 SRT-4).


9 out of 10 MS3's I came across were painfully blown up at the 300whp mark. Couple that with two personal people I know who ran into the same issue, and you think I'm being over critical. Right. I know quite a few 400+whp tC's too, but I'm not a dummy and think it can live a long life at 400whp. MS3 don't live that long in the 300+ range unless you granny driving it to the grocery store and that's it. Saying I dynoed at 500whp on a stock motor, but I never really race = GARBAGE. I'm talking full out reliability at that whp in a racing environment, not Daily Driving it.

If you want me to provide proof rather than just talking, I could do that also. No biggie.

what kind of tires and suspension do you plan on getting with the 1000 dollars? maybe tires.

the issue with forums is there is nobody who comes in to just say my ms3 makes 300whp and there arent any issues. individual situations arent representative.

and the used and modded to new car can be taken to the extremes. i could get a locost and make anything look stupid all while under 100whp

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by fatoni

what kind of tires and suspension do you plan on getting with the 1000 dollars? maybe tires.

the issue with forums is there is nobody who comes in to just say my ms3 makes 300whp and there arent any issues. individual situations arent representative.

and the used and modded to new car can be taken to the extremes. i could get a locost and make anything look stupid all while under 100whp

Tein SS coilovers + V710's mounted to stock Scion wheels/tires....exactly what I run now.

In the MS3 I'm speaking from a collective amount of information and formed an opinion from what I've gathered. I even asked it with the MS3 forums and they semi agreed with me and provided me info on why it's kinda that way.

Originally Posted by DesertSpool

haha but after what $$$$

My tC doesn't fit your criteria. However it didn't start that way and I built it up over time racing a large variety of cars on the way. You have a PM.

[Exage]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I'm hoping it comes in at around $24k. $3k more than a tC. If they want it to succeed they need to price it realistically. It's going to be difficult for the Scion sales reps to sell it to Joe Average or Suzie Secretary when compared to a cheaper tC that has only 20 hp less, but probably feels faster on the test drive because of the torque.

At $24k it could take Joe Average and Suzie secretary out of V6 Mustangs with its looks, reliability, economy, ease of parking, etc... All the boring stuff (discounting looks).

Also if they're emphasizing the 'MPGs' (to save money, right?) in the press release stuff, making it much more expensive than the next Scion doesn't make any sense. Why spend a bunch more money than a tC to get slightly better economy?

I think if it sold for $25K CDN no haggle the FR-S would sell like hot cakes for a couple of years. I think that it depends on the engine they give it because you do bring up a good point in the drivability aspect in normal use.

I'm currently paying over $1.50/L for Premium (that's $5.71/gal for those in the US) a couple MPG could provide the swing vote for people when comparing the FR-S to other RWD cars. I think it's going to sell based on the styling statement when compared to the tC for Joe Average and Suzie secretary.

[n2oinferno]

Most average buyers probably won't care about the engine, which wheel drive, or any of that. They'll care how much it costs, if they like how it looks compared to the tC, and what the fuel economy is. There will be some that won't buy it solely because it's RWD. Most of them live where it gets snowy and think that RWD will kill you in the snow.

Wasn't there a survey not too long ago where a bunch of 1 series drivers thought their car was FWD?
edit: yup, found it http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...llCars/248407/

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

Most average buyers probably won't care about the engine, which wheel drive, or any of that. They'll care how much it costs, if they like how it looks compared to the tC, and what the fuel economy is. There will be some that won't buy it solely because it's RWD. Most of them live where it gets snowy and think that RWD will kill you in the snow.

I think you nailed it on the head.

[Dragonitti]

And a large % of females will buy this car, make no mistake about that.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

Most average buyers probably won't care about the engine, which wheel drive, or any of that. They'll care how much it costs, if they like how it looks compared to the tC, and what the fuel economy is. There will be some that won't buy it solely because it's RWD. Most of them live where it gets snowy and think that RWD will kill you in the snow.

Wasn't there a survey not too long ago where a bunch of 1 series drivers thought their car was FWD?
edit: yup, found it http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...llCars/248407/

and there's some ppl don't care which wheel drive it is, they'll still buy it cuz of the looks.

3 out of 5 RWD cars driven here have been driven by a chick and it's no joke there. & yes, where I live, in winter time it does snow like crazy. We only have 2 season here, Summer and Winter.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Tein SS coilovers + V710's mounted to stock Scion wheels/tires....exactly what I run now.

In the MS3 I'm speaking from a collective amount of information and formed an opinion from what I've gathered. I even asked it with the MS3 forums and they semi agreed with me and provided me info on why it's kinda that way.





My tC doesn't fit your criteria. However it didn't start that way and I built it up over time racing a large variety of cars on the way. You have a PM.

there are a couple things going on here. first, you cant get a turbo kit tein ss and v710s for 3k. second, i think a large part of your perception of cars sucking is the fact that you are using those tires. its the tires that are the source of most of your cars sucess.

if you put those tires on the v6 mustang or even a wrx that you say would requre 400hp to compete im pretty sure the story would be different.

the tein ss are okay but you probably should have saved for at least the flex. from what i understand, thats the cheapest shock that gets significant track testing from that company. im probably coming off as a **** and i dont mean to, seems like you have a pretty nice car

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

I think you nailed it on the head.

There's still a lot of speculation and guessing, which sucks.

Weight and power will factor to the enthusiasts. Economy for the average buyers (and some enthusiasts). And price of course.

If we end up with a situation like:

The ho-hum 2.5L tC

vs

The hi-po 2.0L Civic Si (sitting in for the FT86), it could be not so good.

(mileage figures are in UK gallons, from Scion's Canadian site)

tC: $20,850 CAD
Si: $25,888 CAD

tC: 2.5L
Si: 2.0L

tC: 180 hp
Si: 197 hp

tC: 30.7/44.1 mpg
Si: 27.7/41.5 mpg

When dynamics are not a part of the buying criteria, the tC and FT86 are just two compact coupes. Joe Average may think that getting a bigger 2.5L engine (what's 17 hp?) with better mileage for $5k less is a much better deal. How much of a pull will looks have?

The other thing is how much money the dealers will make on the tC vs the FT86. If it's not as much profit for the FT86, the dealers will steer customers towards the tC, as being cheaper it will be easier to sell and they make more money. This could hurt the long term life of the Ft86.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dimman

There's still a lot of speculation and guessing, which sucks.

Weight and power will factor to the enthusiasts. Economy for the average buyers (and some enthusiasts). And price of course.

If we end up with a situation like:

The ho-hum 2.5L tC

vs

The hi-po 2.0L Civic Si (sitting in for the FT86), it could be not so good.

(mileage figures are in UK gallons, from Scion's Canadian site)

tC: $20,850 CAD
Si: $25,888 CAD

tC: 2.5L
Si: 2.0L

tC: 180 hp
Si: 197 hp

tC: 30.7/44.1 mpg
Si: 27.7/41.5 mpg

When dynamics are not a part of the buying criteria, the tC and FT86 are just two compact coupes. Joe Average may think that getting a bigger 2.5L engine (what's 17 hp?) with better mileage for $5k less is a much better deal. How much of a pull will looks have?

The other thing is how much money the dealers will make on the tC vs the FT86. If it's not as much profit for the FT86, the dealers will steer customers towards the tC, as being cheaper it will be easier to sell and they make more money. This could hurt the long term life of the Ft86.

New Civic has 201hp/170lb-ft no?

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

New Civic has 201hp/170lb-ft no?

Those specs are for the outgoing 2.0L model. Picked that Si because the specs (hp, economy and price) may be close to the FT86's.

Kind of to show what may be the comparison being made by average buyers that don't care about the RWD/dynamics.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by fatoni

there are a couple things going on here. first, you cant get a turbo kit tein ss and v710s for 3k. second, i think a large part of your perception of cars sucking is the fact that you are using those tires. its the tires that are the source of most of your cars sucess.

if you put those tires on the v6 mustang or even a wrx that you say would requre 400hp to compete im pretty sure the story would be different.

the tein ss are okay but you probably should have saved for at least the flex. from what i understand, thats the cheapest shock that gets significant track testing from that company. im probably coming off as a **** and i dont mean to, seems like you have a pretty nice car

My Tein SS costed me $600 bucks. My V710's costed about $700 and a turbo setup for a 2005-2010 tC will set you back $1500-2000. I sold my last turbo setup for $1800 bucks. Grand total $3100 (if you bought a kit at $1800). But there are kits being sold for as cheap at $1k, and no I'm not talking Ebay garbage.

Heck I could get away cheaper and run my street tires on the track and still wax those cars. My DD street tires are Hankook RS-2. They don't make RS-2 anymore so it would be RS-3's which are even stickier than RS-2. In fact my first track vids are ON RS-2 street tires that I drove on Daily and STILL without boost. My track videos are NOT on boost. I say again....My Track experience is NOT on boost. I'm pushing 150-160whp at max in my track videos. My old street racing vids are the ones on boost. And those are not on the track, so you analysis is incorrect. Street racing is complete straight line from a roll on the interstate. Tires do not come into play there so it's not tires. I've ran with 440whp Mustang and beat him. 100shot Nitrous Camaro and got him by a only a headlight. 380whp 300zx twin turbo and we were dead even. I was only pushing 10-11lbs of boost against these cars on a 16G turbo. My new turbo setup though is going to be 12lbs on a GT3076R. This is on a stock motor so I'll keep it around 12-14lbs of boost, roughly 360-380whp. Until I build the motor that is.

And my idea of them sucking has only Half to do with my own abilities and task I have accomplished with my own personal car. The other half has everything to do with my research into them. I like to dig around on many forums to see what people are doing with brand car X. I read on them, peep users builds...etc. I don't just stick to my own. I like to learn about other cars outside of what magazines say.

And just to be certain, the only cars on that list that I honestly think suck are the MS3 and the Focus. The 2011 Stang isn't bad (I'm not a Stang guy by any means), but the 2011 does look good and performs great. It's not a sports car though, it's a Pony car. The WRX, I would definitely own one, but I would kick myself every time an STI drove by. Not a Focus fan by any means. Cosworth makes a bad ass machine and the RS looks bad ass, but I would still never own one. Just because I say I could take $3k into a tC and wax those cars doesn't mean I think those cars suck. Just saying what $3k into a tC can amount to and shouldn't be underestimated, but it always is. It's ok though, I like surprising people.

Why do you insist on challenging me on this when I've been in the Scion game for 5years now? You don't think I know what people sell stuff for?

My Tein SS will be getting a work over. Revalved and dampened and spring rates changed to 600lb front/900lb rear. I might actually switch up to Stance Coilovers (they don't make Flex coilovers for the tC).


PS...Osama Bin Laden is dead...just sayin WOOT WOOT!

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

My Tein SS costed me $600 bucks. My V710's costed about $700 and a turbo setup for a 2005-2010 tC will set you back $1500-2000. I sold my last turbo setup for $1800 bucks. I would get away cheaper and run my street tires on the track and still wax those cars. My DD street tires are Hankook RS-2. They don't make RS-2 anymore so it would be RS-3's which are even stickier than RS-2. In fact my first track vids are ON RS-2 street tires that I drove on Daily and STILL without boost. My track videos are NOT on boost. I say again....My Track experience is NOT on boost. I'm pushing 150-160whp at max in my track videos. My old street racing vids are the ones on boost. And those are not on the track, so you analysis is incorrect.

And my idea of them sucking has only Half to do with my own abilities and task I have accomplished with my own personal car. The other half has everything to do with my research into them. I like to dig around on many forums to see what people are doing with brand car X. I read on them, peep users builds...etc. I don't just stick to my own. I like to learn about other cars outside of what magazines say.

Grand total $3100 (if you bought a kit at $1800). But there are kits being sold for as cheap at $1k, and no I'm not talking Ebay garbage.

Why do you insist on challenging me on this when I've been in the Scion game for 5years now? You don't think I know what people sell stuff for?

My Tein SS will be getting a work over. Revalved and dampened and spring rates changed to 600lb front/900lb rear. I might actually switch up to Stance Coilovers (they don't make Flex coilovers for the tC).

Are you buying your parts used? Cheapest I found Tein SS for is $1100-1200. http://www.google.com/search?client=...=1263&bih=1320


The Kumho V710 are like what, $200/tire (depends on the wheel size and width of course).

Turbo kits vary so much based on the turbo kit and size/quality of the turbo. If you went with a $2000 kit I can believe it. However the Tein SS, V710s and turbo kit seem to be closer to $4000 total (Tein SS $1200 + V710s $800 + turbo kit $2000).

If you are using used parts/discount parts do to sponsorship to make a fair comparison you would need to do the same for the other cars listed above?