FR-S vs. 370z, end all be all of discussions

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by midenginebias

And just think, the Miata hits the price points that the FT86 is projected at anyway.

It's also smaller, has less storage room, a convertible, and only 2 seats. These differences alone will bring potential buyers into the FR-S' corner.

If it's so much weight based on value, the Mustang v6 can be had starting at just over $22k. 300+hp 19/31mpg 6spd. The Genesis Coupe is already a 2+2 with over 200hp and 20/30mpg so, why wait for the FT?

The mustang weighs 3800lbs, and at a projected 200hp @ 2700lbs, the FR-S is short on the P/W ratio by a whopping, WHOPPING, 0.002 hp/lb in comparison.
The Gen Coupe 2.0T is like 210hp @ 3200lbs, giving the FR-S a better P/W ratio....the v6 Gen Coupe is the better performer, but that takes it out of the FR-S' projected pricing area.

I think most people don't understand that there's a significant difference, in terms of affordable monthly payments, between 23-24k and 30k, unless you pay full out cash, or supply a significant downpayment. If you have cash like that around, why not get something even better then?

[midenginebias]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

It's also smaller, has less storage room, a convertible, and only 2 seats. These differences alone will bring potential buyers into the FR-S' corner.

The mustang weighs 3800lbs, and at a projected 200hp @ 2700lbs, the FR-S is short on the P/W ratio by a whopping, WHOPPING, 0.002 hp/lb in comparison.
The Gen Coupe 2.0T is like 210hp @ 3200lbs, giving the FR-S a better P/W ratio....the v6 Gen Coupe is the better performer, but that takes it out of the FR-S' projected pricing area.

You make my point. Both of those cars are already available, and begin at a lower base introductory price point than what the FT86 is projected at.

Save $2k-$3k over a few hp/lb? That makes plenty of sense for most common sports car buyers out there.

Fans of the FT86 place more value in a Boxer 4 and less weight as opposed to just adding HP. It's more of a specialty. No different from RX8 fans who love the rotary, weight, and handling. More of a specialty, and more sports car buyers opted for the 350z and the Mustang instead.

It's also smaller, has less storage room, a convertible, and only 2 seats. These differences alone will bring potential buyers into the FR-S' corner.

Disagree. It boils down to the individual's values of what they want of a car. If I value cutting weight over size, then why wouldn't I just get a Miata over an FR-S? If I value horsepower more than weight, why wouldn't I get a Mustang v6 over an FR-S?

This is like the argument I have at work as to why I prefer a Lotus Elise to a GT500, Z06, etc. I don't care about all that horsepower. I want the handling, 2000lbs, power to weight, and gas mileage of a Lotus over a 2010 GT500, Z06, ZR1, etc. "But the Lotus is hard to get into" "But the Lotus has no space" "But the Lotus is tougher to maintain" I don't care about those things if my priorities are cut weight, handling, power to weight, ans gas mileage; like comparing a PRHT Miata to a v6 Mustang Premium.

[xantonin]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

I think most people don't understand that there's a significant difference, in terms of affordable monthly payments, between 23-24k and 30k, unless you pay full out cash, or supply a significant downpayment. If you have cash like that around, why not get something even better then?

That's true, but what about using the extra cash to make something not-as-good become even better?

[Dimman]

Has an enthusiast ever bought a V6 Mustang? I ask this because it seems to me that if an enthusiast is looking at a Mustang (cause that happens to be the type of car they like), it'll be the V8.

The V6 is the Suzy Secretary version of that car, and if she is cross shopping Toyota/Scion, she's probably not really looking at the performance characteristics of the car. Probably more about style, features, and economy.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by midenginebias

You make my point. Both of those cars are already available, and begin at a lower base introductory price point than what the FT86 is projected at.

Save $2k-$3k over a few hp/lb? That makes plenty of sense for most common sports car buyers out there.

Fans of the FT86 place more value in a Boxer 4 and less weight as opposed to just adding HP. It's more of a specialty. No different from RX8 fans who love the rotary, weight, and handling. More of a specialty, and more sports car buyers opted for the 350z and the Mustang instead.

Remember, the starting price on the FR-S is still in speculation. And if it matches its competitors, it will be an all-around better sports car than any of them. Plus, with gas prices on the rise, more average buyers will shy away from the bigger sized engines in lieu of of the smaller ones that get better economy.

Disagree. It boils down to the individual's values of what they want of a car. If I value cutting weight over size, then why wouldn't I just get a Miata over an FR-S? If I value horsepower more than weight, why wouldn't I get a Mustang v6 over an FR-S?

That wasn't a disagree or agree fact. Its just true...you're talking to enthusiasts. I'm talking about the general public. Miata vs. FR-S...selling points that come up are larger luggage areas, 2 more seats, and more headroom/legroom, plus the added safety of it not being a ragtop. All of those WILL play important roles in their decision on which sport coupe to buy. In regards to the Mustang/Camaro, fuel efficiency will play a role too.

[n2oinferno]

3800 lbs for a Mustang V6? Sure, with a 350lb driver.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

3800 lbs for a Mustang V6? Sure, with a 350lb driver.

http://www.ford.com/cars/mustang/compare/

scroll half way down sir.

You make a point though, with an average driver weight of maybe ~200lbs, the mustang is actually a 2ton car.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

http://www.ford.com/cars/mustang/compare/

scroll half way down sir.

You make a point though, with an average driver weight of maybe ~200lbs, the mustang is actually a 2ton car.

Damn, and people rip on the 3389 lbs Genesis Coupe as overweight.

[OldSkoolToys]

Thats just personal preference. The Gen Coupe, in V6 form, is a lightweight compared to its rivals.

But for me, anything over 3000lbs is too heavy. Power be damned, you can't replace the feeling of a light weight sports car with power. You can only subtract weight....and you can't subtract forever.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

Thats just personal preference. The Gen Coupe, in V6 form, is a lightweight compared to its rivals.

But for me, anything over 3000lbs is too heavy. Power be damned, you can't replace the feeling of a light weight sports car with power. You can only subtract weight....and you can't subtract forever.

Yup. The Supra is at the point of weight reduction where it will become a completely gutted interior/track car if I go further. Other options aren't available (carbon replacement stuff beyond the hood).

Last major weight mods will be aluminum hat brake disks ($$$), flywheel, and ATI crank damper.

If I get some more money sorted out I will be doing hollow 7075-T6 rear suspension links. Even more $$$ for a compact CNC machine for billet 7075-T6 front lower control arms.

As some of you may now see by the fantasy/probably-not-really-going-to happen nature of my future mods (and what I and OST already know), this is why it is absolutely CRITICAL from a performance point that this car be as LIGHT AS POSSIBLE!

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by blur

IMO, RX8 is a 4 door, s2000 and miata are 2 seater convertibles . . . thats not like the FRS at all.

I disagree... When I think of light-to-medium-weight, reasonably priced, RWD cars, those are the first three that come to mind.

I view the FRS as a lighter, cheaper, more efficient, shorter-wheelbase version of the RX8. Which is exactly what I want.

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

FR-S:
~$24k, 2.0L H4 @ ~2700lbs, ~200hp / est. 155 ft-lb

I'll be psyched if it comes out at that price and with those specs. I doubt we'll be so lucky.

[midenginebias]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

Remember, the starting price on the FR-S is still in speculation. And if it matches its competitors, it will be an all-around better sports car than any of them. Plus, with gas prices on the rise, more average buyers will shy away from the bigger sized engines in lieu of of the smaller ones that get better economy.

Unless the gas mileage is 25/34, I don't see gas mileage affecting the decision too much.

That wasn't a disagree or agree fact. Its just true...you're talking to enthusiasts. I'm talking about the general public. Miata vs. FR-S...selling points that come up are larger luggage areas, 2 more seats, and more headroom/legroom, plus the added safety of it not being a ragtop. All of those WILL play important roles in their decision on which sport coupe to buy. In regards to the Mustang/Camaro, fuel efficiency will play a role too.

If it was about bigger luggage, 2 more seats, and more room, then once again, why not just look at a Mustang v6? Lower price point, more room, more luggage, 300hp, 19/31mpg EPA. It already takes a specific enthusiast to find a Miata buyer now considering the competition.

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

http://www.ford.com/cars/mustang/compare/

scroll half way down sir.

You make a point though, with an average driver weight of maybe ~200lbs, the mustang is actually a 2ton car.

I'm willing to bet that this is one of the rare occasions that Ford's site might have a typo, since every other source lists it at ~3450 and the new engine actually weighs less than the outgoing one.
http://www.edmunds.com/ford/mustang/...33&PID=4145469
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...rd-mustang-v6/
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car...hotos_and_info
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...t_numbers.html
That or the GT is just much lighter than the V6?
http://www.ford.com/cars/mustang/com...vehicles=30918

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by midenginebias

Unless the gas mileage is 25/34, I don't see gas mileage affecting the decision too much.

Depends on how much one drives and for what kind driving cycle (and what gas prices are, obviously).

Originally Posted by midenginebias

If it was about bigger luggage, 2 more seats, and more room, then once again, why not just look at a Mustang v6?

Because though its handling is decent, 3450 pounds isn't as fun on tight, gradient changing, rural twisties. And I seldom drive on highways, so the Mustang's 19 MPG city is a significant disadvantage (though its 31 MPG highway is impressive).