How important is an LSD on this car?

[WingsofWar]

It should be offered as an option for performance trims only. LSDs are great, but with todays technology we can get better handling characteristics in real life scenarios without the use of a limited slip. An Open diff with a torque vectoring ABS gives better handling without the use of a limited slip, But for those who want their FR-S track ready using both a ABS and LSD that work in tandem will get great traction results in the course.

In a motor sports event, lets say you want to "drift" but the ABSxLSD is working against you giving unwanted power deliver habits, I am already thinking that Toyota has already thought of this as they had added a ABS off button in the MK1 FT86. Allowing you to use the full locking capabilities of the rear diff without the wanted traction given from ABS.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

It should be offered as an option for performance trims only. LSDs are great, but with todays technology we can get better handling characteristics in real life scenarios without the use of a limited slip. An Open diff with a torque vectoring ABS gives better handling without the use of a limited slip, But for those who want their FR-S track ready using both a ABS and LSD that work in tandem will get great traction results in the course.

In a motor sports event, lets say you want to "drift" but the ABSxLSD is working against you giving unwanted power deliver habits, I am already thinking that Toyota has already thought of this as they had added a ABS off button in the MK1 FT86. Allowing you to use the full locking capabilities of the rear diff without the wanted traction given from ABS.

There are no trim options with Scion.

Second part: Or....OR.....just have ABS do its job and have a mechanical LSD for the traction part...save's a lot of headaches. Funny how sometimes people with technology overcomplicate stuff, when technology is supposed to make things easier.

Can't forget this is supposed to be a driver's car. Fancying it up with silly computer doo-dads kind of defeats that purpose. And for heaven's sake NO on the ABS derived "LSD".

[WingsofWar]

I keep forgetting its going to be sold as a Scion, but regardless our current trend in technology is to develop driver cars for the current market. Not go back to the stonage aka good ol days where everything was just mechanical. I have no quams in technology that helps aid the driver, as long it still keeps us connected. The GTR even with its technology and various driver aids still keeps the driver connected especially in R mode. In the tuner market (not talking about low income drivers like most people on forums) we always want better performance and/or comfort. Iv seen ABS retrofits, launch controls, EDFC combined with air ride.

AKA todays drivers car is different from the 80s drivers car.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

I have no quams in technology that helps aid the driver, as long it still keeps us connected. The GTR even with its technology and various driver aids still keeps the driver connected especially in R mode.

Several professional drivers in Japan have stated that the mostly computer driven GT-R makes them feel disconnected from the car, not more connected.

A driver's car is a driver's car, btw, there's no gray area. Either the driver is in complete control, or the car aids the driver, taking away the status of "driver's car". An entry-level sports car with a small pricetag shouldn't be expected to have advanced technology in it anyways. Especially when it IS being heralded in as a 'drivers car'. Those aids only serve to up the price, and honestly, I don't want this car being expensive so people can boast about their syncro-rev match, or brake assisted differential, and space-time breather valve that opens portals to new worlds and different dimensions.

TL;DR: keep it simple, keep it affordable.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

True that, but for $3k dollars more, I would only want the performance stuff as I'm not into the other stuff that you get. So, performance wise, $3k is a good hike to me for what you get. So, rev-match is all you really got for $3k more. The aero package isn't that aggressive to make a drastic difference in lap times. 19's are bigger than 18's and weigh more. Brakes are larger, but they make braking systems better than factory still.

So, in the end you still could get away with a better performing car for that $3k or just a tad over it, but the difference in performance will be greater over the normal Z.

It kinda goes along with the Turbo option or no turbo option. Granted the motors are the same, going the N/A + aftermarket boost > factory boost and will either be cheaper or cost the same.

Keep in mind though, I'm not saying they shouldn't be equipped with LSD from the factory. I'm saying they should give us one with an open diff for cheaper too. If it's just like $400 buck difference then I would opt for the LSD from the factory. But if we are talking $1000-3k then I'll get an open diff and put my own in when they become available.

Dragon, I think you probably represent <5% of people out there who will buy this car. Most people will just leave it stock and use it as a DD. Another group will add a body kit, new rims, lower the car, maybe do an exhaust...etc. Then comes that group that wants to throw in an engine swap or rebuild the motor with a turbo. That sounds more like you. I personally don't want to do much with it because I don't want to deal with parts breaking and the unreliability of of some aftermarket performance parts on my daily driver. If I had a second car or enough $$$ to blow then sure I could care less. But if I had enough $$$ to care less I wouldn't be looking at a Toyota/Scion. So in a sense I care about the warranty because this car would be more than just a fun toy to take out on the weekend. It will get me to work, go to the grocery store, go out to eat...etc. I think you just have the disease called "upgradeitis" which is really cool and I wish I had money to support that myself. :happy0180: But in the end if I could get something like an LSD or turbo installed at the factory with a warranty for said part at a decent price, I would be all over that.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

Several professional drivers in Japan have stated that the mostly computer driven GT-R makes them feel disconnected from the car, not more connected.

A driver's car is a driver's car, btw, there's no gray area. Either the driver is in complete control, or the car aids the driver, taking away the status of "driver's car". An entry-level sports car with a small pricetag shouldn't be expected to have advanced technology in it anyways. Especially when it IS being heralded in as a 'drivers car'. Those aids only serve to up the price, and honestly, I don't want this car being expensive so people can boast about their syncro-rev match, or brake assisted differential, and space-time breather valve that opens portals to new worlds and different dimensions.

TL;DR: keep it simple, keep it affordable.

on one hand i totally agree with you on the definition of a drivers car. on the other hand, the evo x totally feels like a drivers car. i think its because the yaw control lets you feel like you are in control with a little more slp angle out back but i really dont know

[racinstylez]

If it doesn't come standard, I'm not sure id be inclined to purchase it.

[fatoni]

it would be nice to see a torsen or something. viscous would just be one more thing to maintain and probably would wear to the point its not effective...so torsen or nothing is fine with me

[blur]

This car NEEDS to be track ready. After all the talk, they need to walk the walk. The 86 needs LSD, sport tuned suspension and a 6 speed in the base model. I know I'm a bit optimistic but thats how I see it. The options can provide better parts.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by blur

This car NEEDS to be track ready. After all the talk, they need to walk the walk. The 86 needs LSD, sport tuned suspension and a 6 speed in the base model. I know I'm a bit optimistic but thats how I see it. The options can provide better parts.

*without increasing the base cost of the car that would take it out of the affordable entry-level slot and more into the mid-range (upper 20k).

I totally agree then.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

*without increasing the base cost of the car that would take it out of the affordable entry-level slot and more into the mid-range (upper 20k).

I totally agree then.

Affordable=???? Under $25k? Under $23k? And at what point do we want it to be "economical" at the cost of equipment/performance? Weaker transmission to get the cost down? crappier stock tires/wheels for cheaper price?

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Affordable=???? Under $25k? Under $23k? And at what point do we want it to be "economical" at the cost of equipment/performance? Weaker transmission to get the cost down? crappier stock tires/wheels for cheaper price?

I realize the list he gave really wouldn't push the envelope too bad (we already know its coming 6 speed standard), but yes, they need to weigh what comes standard with keeping the target MSRP low, and I would say definitely under $25k, $23k would be a good high point imo.



I don't know what to say to you guys who don't wrench on your cars. Changing out the springs/struts is easy mode (Especially on a car thats NOT old with stubborn bolts), same with upgrading brakes via pads and rotors, or putting on a sportier exhaust, which is about as bolt on as it gets.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for this, LOVE, for it to come standard with a sport tuned suspension, sport exhaust, LSD, Strut-bracers (like the rolla XRS did), and the likes all standard. But not at upping the cost to where purchasing it becomes a serious financial decision. As long as its affordable, light weight, and RWD, its already sold in my book.

Hmm...affordable...y'know, its a good discussion about what is affordable. Lets say the average serious buyer has a yearly income of ~$30k after taxes (younger market), or $2500 a month. If he can take 20% of his yearly income, $6000, and put it as a down payment, and the car costs $25k, you have a loan of $19k. Speculating average credit for a ~8% interest rate, his payments are ~$390, or almost 16% of his monthly income. From a -financial- pov, that's really at the mark you want your monthly payment on a car to be. Roughly 15%.

But the term affordable is totally subjective based on each individual buyers own financial situation. For me, $25k is really all I'm willing to pay atm until I can get a better job.

Its of course easier, and more objective, to base 'affordability' off of other cars in the market and comparing their stats/features to the car you're wanting to buy.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Option, as there will be better LSD's in the aftermarket and I don't want to pay for something I know I'm going to change.

Stock Supra LSDs were superb. But I'll guess this won't be built to that old standard.

OS Giken, when the stock one dies.

Edit:

Originally Posted by blur

This car NEEDS to be track ready. After all the talk, they need to walk the walk. The 86 needs LSD, sport tuned suspension and a 6 speed in the base model. I know I'm a bit optimistic but thats how I see it. The options can provide better parts.

What I would want for a track-ready car is my previously mentioned 148 hp stock FB20 idea. Now carry that theme to everything. Cheap everything that will be replaced. Small brakes, steel wheels, cheap open diff, no sound deadening, etc...

Mitsubishi did something like this for the older EVOs.

[Mr.Jay]

it has to come with it

all this talk about making a drivers car and bring back the spirit of Toyota sports car and no LSD would be lame