FR-S vs. 370z, end all be all of discussions

[quik1987]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUhLXvxlQR4&feature=player_embedded"]Toyota GT86 / Scion FR-S v Nissan 370Z v Used Porsche Cayman S - CHRIS HARRIS ON CARS - YouTube[/ame]

Waits for certain someone to say "Blah blah blah, SUBJECTIVE REVIEW!"

[shadoquad]

Originally Posted by Travis

Having driven all three cars I agree with everything he said. I never considered buying the Porsche but did consider the Z for a little while until I drove one. Although it may be the slowest of the bunch, the FR-S is by far the most fun to drive

I've driven both the 370z and the FRS, and the Z was more fun for me, but the FRS is quite a fun car, all told.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Actually the 86 has the best ground clearance (4.9") of any car with a comparable CG, except the Ferrari 360 Modena. Look at the specs:

[CG -- Ground Clearance]

370Z: 20.0" -- 4.8"
Miata: 19.0" -- 4.6"
FR-S: 18.1" -- 4.9"
Cayman R: 18.0" -- 4.3"
LFA: 17.8" -- 4.5"
360 Modena: 17.6" -- 4.9"
911 GT3: 17.4" -- 3.7"

And if you eliminate cars above $50k, no car is even close. In fact, the FR-S could even be lowered another 0.4" and beat the CG on the Cayman R and LFA (while matching or beating their ground clearance).



What doesn't make sense to me about that is, given this formula:

g = [weight transfer x track width] / [weight x CG]

If CG has a direct (proportional) relationship with weight transfer, then lateral grip isn't affected at all by a reduction in CG, but we all know that's not the case. So something is not right there.



The 370z CG was already measured by Cayman Dynamics at 20".

i dont know why you care so much about ground clearance. these are sports cars. what you should be concerned about is wheel travel.

Originally Posted by jadewbj

In this comparison the only thing the 370 has over the FR-S is raw HP. The suspension on the FR-S is as good or superior, the balance is better, the car is lighter and just an overall better handling car.

So adding HP would make the car a "beast" IMO, especially compared to the 370Z.

It may be a prototype but there will be production kits shortly, from many tuners.

i think the problem is we dont know how the car will handle the extra power you are suggesting. i imagine the brakes and tires wont like it. and you will find yourself lacking a lot of the grip that the z maintains at these newfound speeds

[ERZperformance]

Originally Posted by DetroitJake

I'm not sure why I feel the need to contribute to the noise here, but I'm going to do it anyway

Regarding 370Z vs FR-S.

It depends on personal choice. Test drive both. Decide what works for you. Thats what I did.

To be honest I've had my eye on the Nissan Z since they introduced the 350Z in 2003. It was and still is such a sexy car. I've driven 350 and 370s. Buuut, I've never quite been able to drop the cash on it. It just feels like too much car for me personally. Also, it is marketed as a bit higher end sports car, which is terrible in my mind. The stripped down one is the one you can 'afford'. But they taunt your conscience with the options you want at prices you don't want to pay. You can easily price that car out to $40k and up with things you feel like you deserve in the $30k braket.

What I've wanted was a small, sexy, tight car that is fun to drive, reasonable to afford, light on its feet, corners with thrift and excitement, where the driver can easily see the road in front, and feels engaged & connected to the vehicle in the cockpit. Toyota & Subaru answered my prayers with the FR-S / BRZ.

I'm pretty sure the Nissan Z is indeed a faster car in some / most circumstances, but does that really matter? Honestly how many of you bought the FR-S / BRZ with the intention of spending most of your time on a track? I don't yet know where I can go to track my car, but I live in Detroit and I'm sure I can find something. When I find that, yes I may track my car someday and I expect to have an absolute blast even if I am many seconds slower than hardend track veterans with fast track tuned cars.

What I DO plan to do with my car everyday is drive to work, run errands, visit friends, etc. While doing that I will be looking great, really feeling the road under my tires, and not blowing all my hard earned dollars on a car payment or gasoline, and that puts an enormous smile on my face.

I think thats what 95% of us will be doing with our FR-S / BRZ.

Already I am shocked at how fast I can corner in this car, and I'm sure I can corner faster than would be necessary to get the attention of the local law enforcement authorities. As far as acceleration, sure many cars with all brawn and no balance can take it from a light, but again, its still fast enough to get you in trouble if thats what you need to be excited.

If after owning an FR-S, finding a track, becoming addicted to racing (spending money on tires and parts all the time) and then I decide the FR-S isn't fast enough, then maybe I'll swear off a financial future and try to get a used Porsche or something, spending bigger money to simply shave a few seconds off lap time.

I think Subaru / Toyota did an excellent job with this car and it is a perfect balance for guys and gals like us that want a car that is attractive and driver focused and won't break the bank. Its not just driving focused balance. Its fuel economy balance, performance balance, cost balance, utility balance.

For me, the Nissan Z always felt a little out of balance. Cost to high, performance 'more than necessary', feels to weighty, less forward road vision with high doors and high hood, cheesy looking dash with so many plastic gauges everywhere, popping up like weeds... etc. Not saying I don't like the Z. And not saying the FR-S is perfect. I'm just saying the FR-S was a better car for me.

If you really want a Nissan Z, but don't want to pay new car prices. Check for a used one. There are tons for sale on places like Autotrader.com. I considered that option, but even with that option, again, I still prefer the feel of the FR-S.

Really good review. I personally been wanting the Z from 350 to now the 370z. I do agree the price seem to be a bit higher compare to some other small fun car such as the Mazdaspeed 3 or the FR-S. I don't own any of those car yet but I'm giving an opportunity and money is not so much of an issue... I will probably still end up getting the Z because I just like how the car perform even when you keep it stock. Esepcailly the exhaust system.

[Embarrassed]

WOW. If all the roads in the US looked like that... but alas, no.

[Jordo!]

Chris likes hooning and feels the FR-S is the better car for the job if you want a new car.

Fair enough.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i dont know why you care so much about ground clearance. these are sports cars. what you should be concerned about is wheel travel.

Uh, because you can lower the car to further reduce the height of the center of gravity.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Uh, because you can lower the car to further reduce the height of the center of gravity.

that isnt as important as having suspension travel. when i think of looking at cars in terms of benefits, ride height is pretty far down the list

[DetroitJake]

Originally Posted by quik1987

Waits for certain someone to say "Blah blah blah, SUBJECTIVE REVIEW!"

Great post man. Great review. Those are exactly the three cars I considered to buy. I bought the FR-S. Its just fun to drive, and I don't have to feel like an elitist in a Porsche.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i dont know why you care so much about ground clearance. these are sports cars. what you should be concerned about is wheel travel.

My view is both are important, neither less so than the other. Take an NC Miata for example. Lowering the car 0.5-1" shouldn't cause any major issues with suspension travel, especially with shortened bumpstops and stiffer spring rates and damping. But with only 4.6" of ground clearance to start with on the chassis, lowering the car that much would drop the minimum ground clearance to 3.6-4.1" total. That is really starting to push the limits on a street driven car, at least for me.

Originally Posted by fatoni

i think the problem is we dont know how the car will handle the extra power you are suggesting. i imagine the brakes and tires wont like it. and you will find yourself lacking a lot of the grip that the z maintains at these newfound speeds

Agree with this. It's fun seeing 300+ whp 86s, but it's relatively unknown how well the chassis deals with that much power. As a general rule, it's better to buy a car that was designed to handle the amount of power you're aiming for (although the 370z might not be the best example for that either, with its brake fade and oil temp issues at the track stock).

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

My view is both are important, neither less so than the other. Take an NC Miata for example. Lowering the car 0.5-1" shouldn't cause any major issues with suspension travel, especially with shortened bumpstops and stiffer spring rates and damping. But with only 4.6" of ground clearance to start with on the chassis, lowering the car that much would drop the minimum ground clearance to 3.6-4.1" total. That is really starting to push the limits on a street driven car, at least for me.

That's unfortunate, the NC positively looks like it's on STILTS stock! Even more so than the FR-S/BRZ.

Agree with this. It's fun seeing 300+ whp 86s, but it's relatively unknown how well the chassis deals with that much power. As a general rule, it's better to buy a car that was designed to handle the amount of power you're aiming for (although the 370z might not be the best example for that either, with its brake fade and oil temp issues at the track stock).

Disagree here. A good basic chassis won't have any problems with significant power addition. I basically *doubled* the power in my 240Z (~125rwhp => 250rwhp), and it made for a brilliant street/track car. Other than a pretty tweaked 3.1 liter L28, only mods were stiffer springs/struts/sways, slotted shock towers for camber, lengthened front control arms for camber, offset control arm bushings for camber and rear toe adjustment, 5-speed trans, and 3.70 lsd. All of those other mods would have been done anyway even with a stock 2.4 to make it a decent track mount.

No doubt in my mind, FR-S/BRZ with 300+hp would be schweeeet...

[jadewbj]

I have nothing against Z drivers, some of my best friends are Z drivers. I love the car, its FAST looks good but is not really affordable. I think that is the main place that the FR-S has the edge.

I think the 350Z was closer in price new to the FR-S but they upped the price considerably when they came out with the 370Z. In 2008 a 350Z cost about $28,000 or 5 grand less than the starting MSRP of the 370.

Now if the 370 was $28,000 I may have purchased a different car, or at least had a lot harder time deciding.

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i think the problem is we dont know how the car will handle the extra power you are suggesting. i imagine the brakes and tires wont like it. and you will find yourself lacking a lot of the grip that the z maintains at these newfound speeds

As with any car, you have to upgrade brakes and tires when you increase power and maybe implement some chassis stiffening. But that's a helluva lot easier than re-engineering the chassis. The engineers intended for this to be a tinkerer's car so they built it to handle more power.

Chris Harris states the Z is an 8/10ths car meaning it starts to feel squirmy (vague steering feel, etc.) at higher speeds. The Z already cannot handle its own stock power.

[shadoquad]

Originally Posted by jadewbj

I have nothing against Z drivers, some of my best friends are Z drivers. I love the car, its FAST looks good but is not really affordable. I think that is the main place that the FR-S has the edge.

I think the 350Z was closer in price new to the FR-S but they upped the price considerably when they came out with the 370Z. In 2008 a 350Z cost about $28,000 or 5 grand less than the starting MSRP of the 370.

Now if the 370 was $28,000 I may have purchased a different car, or at least had a lot harder time deciding.

Affordable is a sliding scale, and inflation effects nearly every model, but this is a point well taken. The FRS is much more affordable, and you can probably have as much fun as one as you can in a Z. I still prefer the Z apples-to-apples, but we all have our budgets to maintain.