Accelerated Performance 2013 BRZ - FRS Turbo Kit Designing

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by SnapOv3st3r

You can drive to 6k rpms and still not spool a turbo. Exhaust gases drive the turbine, not rpms. There is VAC and there is Boost.

Yes, but turbochargers are driven by both exhaust impulses and "static pressure" in the exhaust. When the turbo is giving you a lot of boost that typically means there's some backpressure being built up too, for the simple reason that the turbine is usually not very well optimized for efficiency, for reasons of transient response, etc.

When the intake manifold is under vacuum, the exhaust is still going to be at greater than atmospheric pressure, mostly. Not only that, but the remaining pressure in the cylinder will be above atmospheric pressure, all the way down to just a little over idle load levels.

Of course, power corresponds roughly to exhaust gas mass flow. But we can use rpm as a rough extrapolation point, not to answer the question of how much pumping loss goes up, but whether or not we should care. If 100% load results in 4psi boost, then 30% load probably won't be putting enough exhaust through the turbine to cause much appreciable restriction. On the other hand, some turbocharged engines hit maximum boost below 2000rpm, and so for those you might expect a noticable decrease in fuel economy. It won't be much, but it'll be there.

[SnapOv3st3r]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Yes, but turbochargers are driven by both exhaust impulses and "static pressure" in the exhaust. When the turbo is giving you a lot of boost that typically means there's some backpressure being built up too, for the simple reason that the turbine is usually not very well optimized for efficiency, for reasons of transient response, etc.

When the intake manifold is under vacuum, the exhaust is still going to be at greater than atmospheric pressure, mostly. Not only that, but the remaining pressure in the cylinder will be above atmospheric pressure, all the way down to just a little over idle load levels.

Of course, power corresponds roughly to exhaust gas mass flow. But we can use rpm as a rough extrapolation point, not to answer the question of how much pumping loss goes up, but whether or not we should care. If 100% load results in 4psi boost, then 30% load probably won't be putting enough exhaust through the turbine to cause much appreciable restriction. On the other hand, some turbocharged engines hit maximum boost below 2000rpm, and so for those you might expect a noticable decrease in fuel economy. It won't be much, but it'll be there.

Unless you are going up a hill, you can drive a car without hitting boost. Staying in VAC. If you are hitting boost at cruising speeds then your turbo is simply small for your application. I've ran to redline and never hit boost due to being light on the throttle (i.e. exhaust gases).

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by SnapOv3st3r

Unless you are going up a hill, you can drive a car without hitting boost. Staying in VAC. If you are hitting boost at cruising speeds then your turbo is simply small for your application. I've ran to redline and never hit boost due to being light on the throttle (i.e. exhaust gases).

Yep. Boost is a function of throttle plate opening (or more correctly, how much air is being fed into engine).

[Synack]

Originally Posted by Coheed

This is the smart route anyway. A lot of factory computers have capabilities to do 90% of what a standalone can. And you keep the vehicle road-legal in the process.

Well mine definitely won't be road legal with the setup we're doing. But that's only because it'll never pass emissions with a full blown turbo exhaust from manifold all the way back. But there are ways around emissions

[TouchMyHonda]

Originally Posted by knapper

That is a bit of an uneducated blanket statement. I have owned/created several turboed vehicles throughout my driving life and not once have I spent over $2000 for parts, the labor I did on my own, and tune never more than $1000.

In my opinion, $8000-$10,000 to turbo this car with a basic kit ... is not only too rich for my blood, but only hitting the minority. And to state that having a reliable good quality turbo kit for $2000-$3000 is not possible, is just plain ignorant.

Obviously doing it your self is cheaper, never did I said people couldn't. I can get most of these parts at cost and have shop friends That could help me build everything for free or super cheap. Where your saving money your spending your time and effort. Not everyone has that kind of access to do that though, thus you buy an already made kit.

People complaing about a completely plug in play kit being this expensive, haven't been around the tuning block very long, simply don't understand it, or tolling Nancy's. Almost all premade kits are about this expensive from any tuning company for any car. Go look up full race turbo kits, or even active autowerks kits for bmws.

High quality convinence is expensive. Just wait till the Jdm companies release kits. Expect a lot less for as much or more.

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

... without a junkyard/custom setup.

Or eBay, knockoff stuff, using Ur self for labor, cheaper materials, friend help, hookups, and so fourth. You know what I mean.

Either way good work Don. This is fantastic stuffs.

[knapper]

Originally Posted by .Alex

You took the time and $$$ to R&D a turbo kit from the ground up?

It cost alot of money to do this kind of thing and companies have to recoup what they've spent along with making a profit.

I agree an $8k-$10k turbo kit would be too expensive, but charging $5-$6k seems very reasonable imo.

No, the kit itself is $6000, and that's on sale (including basic extras). That doesn't include the $1500 you will be spending on tuning etc. When all is said and done you will be walking away having spent $9000-$10000 easily.

Is it worth it? Maybe to some. But I don't have money to burn.

I know how R&D works, I am a business owner myself. Sometimes it takes time to even break even with such a product. Generally speaking, smaller outfits up the pricing through the wazoo in order to make profits from the get go. I am not saying that this sketching and selfish business practice doesn't work, I am saying I don't agree with it.

Someone price out down to the penny this kit, or any kit for that matter. Explain to me why "R&D" accounts for at least 30-50% of the costs involved.

Do I appreciate Don's efforts? Absolutely. I am amazed at how far this kit has come in a matter of weeks, but I fail to be mezmorized to the point of throwing my money at it.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by SnapOv3st3r

Unless you are going up a hill, you can drive a car without hitting boost. Staying in VAC. If you are hitting boost at cruising speeds then your turbo is simply small for your application. I've ran to redline and never hit boost due to being light on the throttle (i.e. exhaust gases).

I think you're missing the point. The throttle plate will always be able to reduce the airflow to the desired power level. However the exhaust gas is always going through the turbine, even with fancy electronically controlled wastegates. It's not the boost that's the problem, it's the turbo attempting to create boost. It will pressurize the intake tract before the throttle body, and pose a restriction in the exhaust. The engine doesn't see the compressor trying to push more air past the throttle, but it does need to expend more energy pushing exhaust through the turbine.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by knapper

No, the kit itself is $6000, and that's on sale (including basic extras). That doesn't include the $1500 you will be spending on tuning etc. When all is said and done you will be walking away having spent $9000-$10000 easily.

Is it worth it? Maybe to some. But I don't have money to burn.

I know how R&D works, I am a business owner myself. Sometimes it takes time to even break even with such a product. Generally speaking, smaller outfits up the pricing through the wazoo in order to make profits from the get go. I am not saying that this sketching and selfish business practice doesn't work, I am saying I don't agree with it.

Someone price out down to the penny this kit, or any kit for that matter. Explain to me why "R&D" accounts for at least 30-50% of the costs involved.

Do I appreciate Don's efforts? Absolutely. I am amazed at how far this kit has come in a matter of weeks, but I fail to be mezmorized to the point of throwing my money at it.

Where are you seeing $6k? I'm seeing $4995, tuning is $1,200 from John.

That's ~$6,200 total before installation cost. If you want to pay me 3-4k to install it I will fly to whereever you live.

[TouchMyHonda]

Originally Posted by knapper

No, the kit itself is $6000, and that's on sale (including basic extras). That doesn't include the $1500 you will be spending on tuning etc. When all is said and done you will be walking away having spent $9000-$10000 easily.

Is it worth it? Maybe to some. But I don't have money to burn.

I know how R&D works, I am a business owner myself. Sometimes it takes time to even break even with such a product. Generally speaking, smaller outfits up the pricing through the wazoo in order to make profits from the get go. I am not saying that this sketching and selfish business practice doesn't work, I am saying I don't agree with it.

Someone price out down to the penny this kit, or any kit for that matter. Explain to me why "R&D" accounts for at least 30-50% of the costs involved.

Do I appreciate Don's efforts? Absolutely. I am amazed at how far this kit has come in a matter of weeks, but I fail to be mezmorized to the point of throwing my money at it.

I don't go on a Rolex forum and talk about how their watches are far too expensive and that's why I choose to wear high end citizen watches, effectively pooping all over there threads. Too expensive for you, don't buy? What r u doing to help this thread by saying his makeup is selfish?! :offtopic :

[Don@Accelerated]

Originally Posted by knapper

No, the kit itself is $6000, and that's on sale (including basic extras). That doesn't include the $1500 you will be spending on tuning etc. When all is said and done you will be walking away having spent $9000-$10000 easily.

Is it worth it? Maybe to some. But I don't have money to burn.

I know how R&D works, I am a business owner myself. Sometimes it takes time to even break even with such a product. Generally speaking, smaller outfits up the pricing through the wazoo in order to make profits from the get go. I am not saying that this sketching and selfish business practice doesn't work, I am saying I don't agree with it.

Someone price out down to the penny this kit, or any kit for that matter. Explain to me why "R&D" accounts for at least 30-50% of the costs involved.

Do I appreciate Don's efforts? Absolutely. I am amazed at how far this kit has come in a matter of weeks, but I fail to be mezmorized to the point of throwing my money at it.

The kit is $4995. I'm actually considering locking that price down and there will be no dealer pricing.

[knapper]

I think that is likely a wise decision in the long run, but you are free to price the kits at anything you like. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and free to state it.

I did not mean for my post to sound like an attack against you, it was more general towards the tuner community as a whole.

Take intakes for example, please explain, from a materials perspective, how ANY intake can cost $300+ ... (I don't actually want an explanation). The materials used can be not only sourced by fabricated, and on a singular level, for less than one quarter of the actually cost to build. And people will sit and pretend that because this is a whole new engine that MASS amounts of R&D, man hours, blood sweat and tears all go into it. Which some of all of those do go into it, but most of it is hollywood shuffle. Engines, for the most part, haven't changed in the last couple of decades.

"OH CRAP! The pipe has to turn to the left instead of the right now! Let's research and develop this for a few hours ... sorry weeks ... and upsell the fuck out of it".

Don't get me wrong, I am just as excited about this kit as the next guy, and I can't wait to see how it develops further within the community. I just can't stand when folks start throwing the "R&D" and "man hours" as the reason for the inflated pricing.

[Silverdub]

But this is a turbo kit and not an sri so it does tale a lot of knowledge and man hours but i do agree that sri are overpriced

[knapper]

Originally Posted by Silverdub

But this is a turbo kit and not an sri so it does tale a lot of knowledge and man hours but i do agree that sri are overpriced

I was simply using that as an example. This kit undoubetly took time and effort to build. It took trying a few layouts before finding out what would work and what wouldn't. But do those hours of commitment and research equal tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars in gross income? I don't believe so.

[rusty959]

Besides how we may be getting a bit too far off topic, don't forget that not all of the cost over that of materials is profit from r&d. In a shop like this, there are tons of things such as building costs like rent, power, etc and tools like dyno, etc, none of which are cheap. Then assembling the kit has a cost for each kit as well.
In my line of work, engineering, the overhead can be up to twice as much as the hourly wage. Of course we have a lot of IT etc work that needs to happen, but still.