Oil weight for track only car with a lot of cooling?

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by RT-BRZ

Honestly, when looking at this particular problem, it seems like real motorsports provides the answers. In general, I've observed that pretty much every flavor of ICE engine-based motorsports uses oil coolers. It seems pretty commonplace for a lot of these platforms to employ things like Accusump and remote reservoirs. Cars for public driven roads don't generally seem to use these kinds of things because of cost and complexity. It's not because they aren't a good idea.

Agreed! My unwavering stance on the subject is that, no matter the use case, best practice is to control wide swings in temperature. There is an optimum operating temperature where the parts are designed to play best with each other. I like to play but I intend to keep my current one indefinitely. To that end, I focus on mindful hooning, modification, and maintenance.

[gnarjunkie]

Originally Posted by RT-BRZ

Honestly, when looking at this particular problem, it seems like real motorsports provides the answers. In general, I've observed that pretty much every flavor of ICE engine-based motorsports uses oil coolers. It seems pretty commonplace for a lot of these platforms to employ things like Accusump and remote reservoirs. Cars for public driven roads don't generally seem to use these kinds of things because of cost and complexity. It's not because they aren't a good idea.

100%

The tricky thing is though that they are also working with much higher stakes and often much higher demands as well.

As an example, I saw a video with a Formula Drift team -- they swap in a full new set of spark plugs for every single competition run. Car goes out on track, runs for less than a minute at full song, then gets a new set of plugs as soon as it's back in the pits.

Necessary? Possibly. Those engines are insane.

More likely though, they're already spending $20k+ for every single event and six figures for a season. So a few hundred dollars a weekend in plugs is trivial, but the cost of one plug going bad and not working right on a crucial run is devastating.

For an enthusiast, most people have to figure out where that line is between ideal and overkill for their uses.

(Not so much speaking on oil coolers here, just sharing thoughts. Something like an Accusump though feels like it's sitting on that line)

[Ultramaroon]

^^^Yes, and especially:

Originally Posted by gnarjunkie

For an enthusiast, most people have to figure out where that line is between ideal and overkill for their uses.

(Not so much speaking on oil coolers here, just sharing thoughts. Something like an Accusump though feels like it's sitting on that line)

Considering it that way, I think the line bends depending on individual aspects of our enthusiasm. I choose to run shitty tires and focus on making the most of what's available inside that envelope. I do drool over the idea of a sweet dry sump. Things like trans and diff cooling are just as important but I wouldn't consider sticky tires without first addressing oiling and wheel bearing issues in support of them.

One may ask, "Why not just replace them as needed?" Personally, I find my bliss in finding that reasonably comprehensive approach to a solution. I don't say it's better or worse for any particular reason. I enjoy the game.

For instance, my next exercise is to build or specify custom output shafts to minimize angular play. I am irritated by that slop. Is it bad? Depends on the use case and overall goals of ownership.

[GrandSport]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

People should say what they mean, otherwise it looks like they have no idea what they're talking about.

Bro, he made a mistake (kind of like how your comma should have been a semicolon). Get over it. It's not a big deal. Being intentionally obtuse to do it is a waste of time and internet, both of which are seemingly worthless to you.

[blsfrs]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

No, because sodium chloride is sale. Tolerance is not clearance.

Nacl is a type of salt. There are others, if you want to be specific.

- Sodium chloride.
- Potassium chloride.
- Calcium chloride.
- Sodium bisulfate.
- Copper sulfate.
- Magnesium sulfate (Epsom salt)
- Potassium iodide.
- Potassium permanganate.

[GrandSport]

Originally Posted by gnarjunkie

100%

The tricky thing is though that they are also working with much higher stakes and often much higher demands as well.

As an example, I saw a video with a Formula Drift team -- they swap in a full new set of spark plugs for every single competition run. Car goes out on track, runs for less than a minute at full song, then gets a new set of plugs as soon as it's back in the pits.

Necessary? Possibly. Those engines are insane.

More likely though, they're already spending $20k+ for every single event and six figures for a season. So a few hundred dollars a weekend in plugs is trivial, but the cost of one plug going bad and not working right on a crucial run is devastating.

For an enthusiast, most people have to figure out where that line is between ideal and overkill for their uses.

(Not so much speaking on oil coolers here, just sharing thoughts. Something like an Accusump though feels like it's sitting on that line)

I've found that my run time and my repair time edge close to 2:1. Every hour on the track is half an hour in the air, and that's for very low maintenance and robust vehicles like my 86 and Miata. That does NOT include build time.

It's always something. Pads, a fluid, tire rotation, general inspection, something broken, software issues, etc.

I can't imagine what it would be for some other less reliable cars. It's why I tell people not to get cute with their track car selection. Just get something you can run into the damn ground or you'll be underneath it more than you're driving it.

edit: And lately, it seems like I've been spending 25% as much time working on my car, working on my garage and tools! Organize this, build that, clean that, calibrate the torque wrench, etc.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by blsfrs

Nacl is a type of salt. There are others, if you want to be specific.

- Sodium chloride.
- Potassium chloride.
- Calcium chloride.
- Sodium bisulfate.
- Copper sulfate.
- Magnesium sulfate (Epsom salt)
- Potassium iodide.
- Potassium permanganate.

It's not a matter of being specific. It's a matter of using the correct word between two words that mean totally different things.

[gen3v8]

Like knowing Fucken Nothing. When you actually know Fuck All.

[autoracer86]

Easy to see why tokay444 was banned on multiple forums… You think he would have grown up by now.

[GrandSport]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

It's not a matter of being specific. It's a matter of using the correct word between two words that mean totally different things.

We get it. You're an engineer. Ohhh wow. We're all so impressed.

Happy now?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

^^^Yes, and especially:


Considering it that way, I think the line bends depending on individual aspects of our enthusiasm. I choose to run shitty tires and focus on making the most of what's available inside that envelope. I do drool over the idea of a sweet dry sump. Things like trans and diff cooling are just as important but I wouldn't consider sticky tires without first addressing oiling and wheel bearing issues in support of them.

One may ask, "Why not just replace them as needed?" Personally, I find my bliss in finding that reasonably comprehensive approach to a solution. I don't say it's better or worse for any particular reason. I enjoy the game.

For instance, my next exercise is to build or specify custom output shafts to minimize angular play. I am irritated by that slop. Is it bad? Depends on the use case and overall goals of ownership.

Because the "as needed" may come with a catastrophically high cost.

Lets say you replaced brake pads "as needed". That "as needed" may be in the middle of your endurance race, because you decided that pads with 2/3 their thickness left shouldn't be tossed. Now the $2M spent on that race results in an automatic loss.

Or maybe the "need" came in the form of pads running out at the end of a straight at the track, and the needed braking was no longer there.

Extreme examples, but you get the idea!

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by RT-BRZ

Honestly, when looking at this particular problem, it seems like real motorsports provides the answers. In general, I've observed that pretty much every flavor of ICE engine-based motorsports uses oil coolers..

Typically most high-end motorsports run higher oil temperatures.
Quick search yields: "Sump temperature at Daytona is ~280°F with the oil temperature at bearing exit near 355°F."

Also: https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/en...l-temperature/
"A full-synthetic oil will withstand sump temperatures in excess of 300 degrees, and for hardcore professional racing, some oval-track race teams are experimenting with ultra-thin, specially formulated, race-only synthetics operating at 350 degrees or even higher."

Just because pro motorsports most often use oil coolers doesn't mean they aren't running higher oil temps...

[RT-BRZ]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Typically most high-end motorsports run higher oil temperatures.
Quick search yields: "Sump temperature at Daytona is ~280°F with the oil temperature at bearing exit near 355°F."

Also: https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/en...l-temperature/
"A full-synthetic oil will withstand sump temperatures in excess of 300 degrees, and for hardcore professional racing, some oval-track race teams are experimenting with ultra-thin, specially formulated, race-only synthetics operating at 350 degrees or even higher."

Just because pro motorsports most often use oil coolers doesn't mean they aren't running higher oil temps...

I don't disagree at all. These same teams also run their cars for much longer periods of time and at much higher average RPM as well. The point is that they don't just expect to run thicker oil to compensate for those conditions. I seem to recall that groups like NASCAR run something like 20 quarts of oil in their cars. Of course that 20 quarts is pumped to the rear of the car through a cooler and reservoir before being passed back into the engine.

So, the answer to the basic question of thicker oil versus a cooler seems relatively straightforward. An oil cooler is the better way to address the issue.

[autoracer86]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Typically most high-end motorsports run higher oil temperatures.
Quick search yields: "Sump temperature at Daytona is ~280°F with the oil temperature at bearing exit near 355°F."

That doesn't mean that want to run those temps or that it is even good for the motor. They don't have a choice in those environments.

"We" can pretty easily avoid extreme oil temperatures whether that be doing less laps during a HPDE session or installing a basic oil cooler.

There is no benefit for a track car to run high oil temps(north of 270) even if it is within spec of the motor oil. Being in spec doesn't mean it's optimal.

230-260 is easy enough to achieve