New ICE Vehicles Banned in California by 2035

[Irace86.2.0]

This was biased, but funny. I do like the Carsized.com website mentioned in this video. I didn't know about it.

He made a few wrong points: SUVs do kill visibility, and as a side, I love the visibility up front of my BRZ, but it is more likely the rise in prevalence of SUVs resulted in more child deaths, and it is less likely the increasing size of SUVs over that period was the culprit.

What I did find funny was the comparison between car drivers and SUV drivers, where SUV drivers are more likely to be bad drivers. With all the talk of FSD Tesla drivers being a road hazard, maybe we should be more concerned about SUV drivers.

[MyHybridBurnsGasAndTires]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

This was biased, but funny. I do like the Carsized.com website mentioned in this video. I didn't know about it.

He made a few wrong points: SUVs do kill visibility, and as a side, I love the visibility up front of my BRZ, but it is more likely the rise in prevalence of SUVs resulted in more child deaths, and it is less likely the increasing size of SUVs over that period was the culprit.

What I did find funny was the comparison between car drivers and SUV drivers, where SUV drivers are more likely to be bad drivers. With all the talk of FSD Tesla drivers being a road hazard, maybe we should be more concerned about SUV drivers.

we can be concerned about both, it's not an either/or proposition

however i do agree that the huge swathes of suvs/trucks is a plague on the roads and if i could eliminate them or "self driving" i'd easily choose the former

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

This was biased, but funny. I do like the Carsized.com website mentioned in this video. I didn't know about it....

Yea, carsized.com was new to me, and the best part of the video. While he does make some valid points, it only takes about 10 seconds in for you to realize he's a "everyone should like in a city, and everyone should walk everywhere, and not other opinion matters" type of commentator designed to specfically piss off the people he's protesting against.

Also, love the shot at the end where the video shows a 2022 pickup and a small Nissan pickup from the 1980s, and tries to pass that off as how the pickup has grown in size since 1980.

I do agree that not everyone who drives a truck, or an SUV, or even a SMART needs the size car they are driving. Just not sure who you let decide who does "need" it.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Yea, carsized.com was new to me, and the best part of the video. While he does make some valid points, it only takes about 10 seconds in for you to realize he's a "everyone should like in a city, and everyone should walk everywhere, and not other opinion matters" type of commentator designed to specfically piss off the people he's protesting against.

Also, love the shot at the end where the video shows a 2022 pickup and a small Nissan pickup from the 1980s, and tries to pass that off as how the pickup has grown in size since 1980.

I do agree that not everyone who drives a truck, or an SUV, or even a SMART needs the size car they are driving. Just not sure who you let decide who does "need" it.

As far as CAFE standards, they should just close the light SUV loophole. That should change things a lot, but the market is going EV, so maybe that is why government didn't close that loophole; they are giving manufactures time because they will be forced to transition anyway, and I'm sure the change in the future will be able taxing or controlling battery pack sizes, which should reduce vehicle size.

[Irace86.2.0]

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2023/0...ta-energy.html

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

As far as CAFE standards, they should just close the light SUV loophole. That should change things a lot, but the market is going EV, so maybe that is why government didn't close that loophole; they are giving manufactures time because they will be forced to transition anyway, and I'm sure the change in the future will be able taxing or controlling battery pack sizes, which should reduce vehicle size.

I've been wondering about that. Since EV regulations are the same (am I right about that?) whether it's a car or a truck, can automakers stop pretending that some of their EVs are SUVs?

Ioniq 5, EV6, Model Y, Mach-E...can we stop pretending? My guess is no since people seem to flock to anything labeled "SUV".

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I've been wondering about that. Since EV regulations are the same (am I right about that?) whether it's a car or a truck, can automakers stop pretending that some of their EVs are SUVs?

Ioniq 5, EV6, Model Y, Mach-E...can we stop pretending? My guess is no since people seem to flock to anything labeled "SUV".

I believe they are the same for now, but the EV tax credit maxes out at $80k and is income dependent at high levels, so the Hummer EV doesn't qualify. I'm sure in the future, something like the Hummer EV will be considered a gross polluter relative to other EVs because of its battery size, and it may get taxed for that, or manufactures might be limited in some way like how manufactures have CAFE standards; ie, their average fleet needs to have less than 100kWh.

As you know, there are SUVs and CUVs, right? SUVs classically are like trucks, so cab on frame. Unibody SUVs are CUVs/crossovers, but most people and the government use size because a Porsche Cayenne/Touareg/Q7/Q8 are huge CUVs, so the definition (below) is broad. I feel like most people don't use CUV much, and if they use the word crossover then it is because the vehicle has used that in their name or is so identical to the car. Something that comes to mind is the Subaru Impreza hatchback versus the Subaru Crosstrek.

As you know, people like SUVs and SUVs because they have a commanding view of the road, have upright seats and are easier to get in and out of, which is easier on our big bellies, and are capable of off-roading, snow clearance and hauling more people comfortably or stowing a lot easily. They are the Swiss Army knife of vehicles for most people. The Model Y and Model 3 are similar to the Impreza and Crosstrek; there is a little more upright seating, a little more ground clearance, and a little difference in storage, although the Crosstrek has less storage volume than the Impreza hatch, ironically. The push to qualify some of these EVs as SUVs is to qualify them for federal tax credits, but if a Crosstrek is a SUV/CUV then so is a IONIQ 5 or Model Y. The ride height is less than a Crosstrek, but the cargo volume is a lot more.

https://www.cga.ct.gov/PS95/rpt/olr/htm/95-R-0062.htm

A light truck is considered to be an automobile other than a passenger automobile which is designed either for off-highway operation or to perform at least one of these functions: (1) transporting more than 10 people, (2) providing temporary living quarters, (3) transporting property on an open bed, (4) providing greater cargo-carrying than passenger-carrying volume, or (5) permitting expanded use of the automobile for cargo-carrying or other nonpassenger-carrying purposes through the removal of seats provided for this purpose by the manufacturer or through the use of simple tools, and thereby creating a flat, floor level surface inside the vehicle.

What counts as an SUV? Treasury shifts definition for EV tax credits after carmaker complaints
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...s/69842273007/

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I've been wondering about that. Since EV regulations are the same (am I right about that?) whether it's a car or a truck, can automakers stop pretending that some of their EVs are SUVs?

Ioniq 5, EV6, Model Y, Mach-E...can we stop pretending? My guess is no since people seem to flock to anything labeled "SUV".

Agreed. But what do/should we call them? My son has an Outback Wilderness. It’s not really easy to classify in a marketing based framework. Is it a car? Well, yes, but that’s not really a complete description. My wife’s Camry is a car. His outback is “different.”

I refer to it sometimes as a “robust station wagon.” He objects to that characterization and I can see why. He didn’t grow up with his parents borrowing a “vista cruiser” for a vacation trip, but he seems to have a cellular level allergy to the term. I can understand that.

Is the Model Y just a hatchback version of the 3? I don’t have any experience with either. But those cars are stuck in a curious middle ground. They’re not Broncos but they’re not Country Squires.

The English language has suffered greatly with the verbification of nouns. I guess we could reverse that trend and contort some poor verb into doing the job.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

What counts as an SUV? Treasury shifts definition for EV tax credits after carmaker complaints

That article is only partially correct. Treasury was doing some weird things outside what the rest of the government was doing to classify vehicles. For example, the Model Y qualified but only if it had a 3rd row until they changed it.

This portion shows the difficulty

Treasury had adopted a definition of SUVs that is used in federal Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards, which require vehicles to have a series of specific features, including "an extended roof line" to increase capacity, a trunk that is open to the passenger seating area, and at least one seat that can be "readily removed or folded" to create more trunk space.

All of that applied to the LYRIQ, which DOT had already classified as a SUV because of it. Treasury didn't classify the LYRIQ as an SUV.

I could make an argument that the LYRIQ is a "fat station wagon" (which it really is) but it also meets the requirements for an SUV. Had nothing todo with weight as it is under the weight category as well. However, it also isn't a Sedan either, which is what the lower price ceiling was aimed at.

Ultimately, the government really shouldn't have extended the tax credits at all at this point.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

Agreed. But what do/should we call them? My son has an Outback Wilderness. It’s not really easy to classify in a marketing based framework. Is it a car? Well, yes, but that’s not really a complete description. My wife’s Camry is a car. His outback is “different.”

I refer to it sometimes as a “robust station wagon.” He objects to that characterization and I can see why. He didn’t grow up with his parents borrowing a “vista cruiser” for a vacation trip, but he seems to have a cellular level allergy to the term. I can understand that.

Is the Model Y just a hatchback version of the 3? I don’t have any experience with either. But those cars are stuck in a curious middle ground. They’re not Broncos but they’re not Country Squires.

The English language has suffered greatly with the verbification of nouns. I guess we could reverse that trend and contort some poor verb into doing the job.

The Outback had always been a Legacy Station wagon. He just needs to look back on the history of the outback and he'll see it split off from the Legacy at one point and it became its own thing as the Outback instead of the Legacy Outback. Like how the Supra became its own thing after being a Celica Supra for a model year or two or even the Impreza and Crosstrek (well the Crosstrek was born from being a Impreza Outback...but then disappeared for awhile before Subaru brought back the raised Impreza and called it XV Crosstrek). I think when it became the Outback by itself, they were able to jack up the ground clearance a bit to give it a bit more differentiation from the standard Legacy, and so it became a socalled CUV/SUV of sorts.

But all those other in between cars...maybe they need t add the crossover CUV designation?

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Ultimately, the government really shouldn't have extended the tax credits at all at this point.

I feel like the government could influence only supply with regulations, or they could influence only demand with incentives, or they could do both. That is what they did, and I think it works best.

[Irace86.2.0]

This light, energy-dense battery just got independently verified
https://electrek.co/2023/03/23/ampri...ntly-verified/

The All-New Amprius 500 Wh/kg Battery Platform is Here
https://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...atform-is-Here

[Arthur-A]

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Arthur-A

Insurers don't have the skill or data to assess the risk to benefit ratio yet. We have had BEVs, PHEVs and HEVs for a while now, and they all have batteries. I don't know why this is an issue now. The future is most likely going to be hands-free autonomous driving or a certain degree of driver assistance features where many accidents might be reduced, which should benefit insurance providers. Tesla is making the battery pack part of the car, so "scratches" would need to be severe and most likely seriously structural in a way that a car would have frame damage and be written off. I don't really see this as a growing issue.

Spend two seconds on eBay, and you will see battery modules for sale, EV motors for sale and all other types of EV parts, so I don't understand the suggestion that these components can't be repaired or have a second life.

The batteries are being repurposed/recycled in the commercial and private sector as grid storage, RV storage, car conversions, etc. There are also battery recyclers like there are for cellphone, laptops, tablets, etc. (1)Surely this guy doesn't think we should stop making cell phones and laptops does he?

Lithium sulfur batteries and other chemistry batteries in the works are far, far less flammable (2). This is still a maturing market in its infancy, so it is naive to think the initial products will be polished and free from issues.

I find the conversation on cobalt mining to be hypocritical on both sides. One side typically doesn't have a problem exploiting cheap labor around the world for corporate profits, yet condemns cobalt mining, and the other acts high and mighty advocating for saving the planet or helping the poor, but fly private, buy expensive luxury EVs and are for helping the homeless as long as the low income housing isn't in their backyard. Why is child labor and worker exploitation being specifically highlighted now and by a particular party? Because it serves them best, yet there are a number of products made from exploited labor (3) and child labor (4) not being discussed. Cobalt isn't needed for the EV industry to move forward, and no one is calling for an end to smart phones, laptops and tablets, so this is more of a political issue.

End of life emissions from materials to recyclers, BEVs are much better. They are far more sustainable. They are cheaper. ICEs use a finite resource for fuel, pollute more, and more expensive over the length of their life.

Power grab? EVs offer the possibility of living sustainably off-grid with solar, so if anything, the power grab could be coming from the oil industry. Nothing about autonomy has anything to do with the powertrain. 97% of cars on the road are automatic, so the vast majority of cars could be autonomous and could be turned on and off remotely or controlled if the systems were in place. There is nothing about a Nissan Leaf or Chevy Bolt that makes it more controllable.

Part of our throw away society has to do with CAPITALISM. Planned obsolescence keeps things failing before they need to, and as it pertains to cars, people buy new cars because warranties expire, and they fear a huge bill. Also, unfortunately, it is cheaper to throw things away than to recycle them. It is about profit. This can be changed easily with policies.

He seems to be fixated on the recyclability of BEVs. They can be recycled when the industry grows, and they can be repurposed, which is the best way to recycle them. Imagine pulling a 50-100kWh battery from your old car to use as a home storage system. These batteries will still have 50-70% of their life still available when cars have reached the end of their typical use cycle:

To address the elephant in the room: yes, electric car batteries are recyclable, with some techniques allowing up to 95% of the raw materials to be recovered. Governments globally are also mandating EV batteries to be designed and manufactured in an easily recyclable way (5).

Nissan uses 148 Leaf EV batteries to power Amsterdam stadium

The batteries include both new and used ones (6).

There is something called the Diffusion of Innovation Theory by Everett Rogers, which describes the characteristics, movement and success of change, and it highlights the influence of laggards and rejectors on the S curve for product adoption (7). With any change, these types are predictable, even if they are a vocal minority.