New ICE Vehicles Banned in California by 2035

[bcj]

Uniquely disquieting "Tommy Boy" vibes with that guy.
but that's just me I suppose.

[soundman98]

i didn't watch the video, but the reality is that ford would need to pull every single franchise contract in order to effectively hurt the markup stuff.

with all the dealers being a franchise instead of being owned by ford, ford has little to no real say in the matter, like it or not.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by soundman98

with all the dealers being a franchise instead of being owned by ford, ford has little to no real say in the matter, like it or not.

Not sure that is 100% accurate given Ford controls allocations to dealers, and that seems to be the route they are going down.

[soundman98]

i dunno, there's enough other fees a vehicle purchase, i don't hold out hope that they don't move the numbers in the fees around a little to offset it while looking 'legal' to ford.

[Irace86.2.0]

This was biased, but funny. I do like the Carsized.com website mentioned in this video. I didn't know about it.

He made a few wrong points: SUVs do kill visibility, and as a side, I love the visibility up front of my BRZ, but it is more likely the rise in prevalence of SUVs resulted in more child deaths, and it is less likely the increasing size of SUVs over that period was the culprit.

What I did find funny was the comparison between car drivers and SUV drivers, where SUV drivers are more likely to be bad drivers. With all the talk of FSD Tesla drivers being a road hazard, maybe we should be more concerned about SUV drivers.

[MyHybridBurnsGasAndTires]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

This was biased, but funny. I do like the Carsized.com website mentioned in this video. I didn't know about it.

He made a few wrong points: SUVs do kill visibility, and as a side, I love the visibility up front of my BRZ, but it is more likely the rise in prevalence of SUVs resulted in more child deaths, and it is less likely the increasing size of SUVs over that period was the culprit.

What I did find funny was the comparison between car drivers and SUV drivers, where SUV drivers are more likely to be bad drivers. With all the talk of FSD Tesla drivers being a road hazard, maybe we should be more concerned about SUV drivers.

we can be concerned about both, it's not an either/or proposition

however i do agree that the huge swathes of suvs/trucks is a plague on the roads and if i could eliminate them or "self driving" i'd easily choose the former

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

This was biased, but funny. I do like the Carsized.com website mentioned in this video. I didn't know about it....

Yea, carsized.com was new to me, and the best part of the video. While he does make some valid points, it only takes about 10 seconds in for you to realize he's a "everyone should like in a city, and everyone should walk everywhere, and not other opinion matters" type of commentator designed to specfically piss off the people he's protesting against.

Also, love the shot at the end where the video shows a 2022 pickup and a small Nissan pickup from the 1980s, and tries to pass that off as how the pickup has grown in size since 1980.

I do agree that not everyone who drives a truck, or an SUV, or even a SMART needs the size car they are driving. Just not sure who you let decide who does "need" it.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Yea, carsized.com was new to me, and the best part of the video. While he does make some valid points, it only takes about 10 seconds in for you to realize he's a "everyone should like in a city, and everyone should walk everywhere, and not other opinion matters" type of commentator designed to specfically piss off the people he's protesting against.

Also, love the shot at the end where the video shows a 2022 pickup and a small Nissan pickup from the 1980s, and tries to pass that off as how the pickup has grown in size since 1980.

I do agree that not everyone who drives a truck, or an SUV, or even a SMART needs the size car they are driving. Just not sure who you let decide who does "need" it.

As far as CAFE standards, they should just close the light SUV loophole. That should change things a lot, but the market is going EV, so maybe that is why government didn't close that loophole; they are giving manufactures time because they will be forced to transition anyway, and I'm sure the change in the future will be able taxing or controlling battery pack sizes, which should reduce vehicle size.

[Irace86.2.0]

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2023/0...ta-energy.html

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

As far as CAFE standards, they should just close the light SUV loophole. That should change things a lot, but the market is going EV, so maybe that is why government didn't close that loophole; they are giving manufactures time because they will be forced to transition anyway, and I'm sure the change in the future will be able taxing or controlling battery pack sizes, which should reduce vehicle size.

I've been wondering about that. Since EV regulations are the same (am I right about that?) whether it's a car or a truck, can automakers stop pretending that some of their EVs are SUVs?

Ioniq 5, EV6, Model Y, Mach-E...can we stop pretending? My guess is no since people seem to flock to anything labeled "SUV".

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I've been wondering about that. Since EV regulations are the same (am I right about that?) whether it's a car or a truck, can automakers stop pretending that some of their EVs are SUVs?

Ioniq 5, EV6, Model Y, Mach-E...can we stop pretending? My guess is no since people seem to flock to anything labeled "SUV".

I believe they are the same for now, but the EV tax credit maxes out at $80k and is income dependent at high levels, so the Hummer EV doesn't qualify. I'm sure in the future, something like the Hummer EV will be considered a gross polluter relative to other EVs because of its battery size, and it may get taxed for that, or manufactures might be limited in some way like how manufactures have CAFE standards; ie, their average fleet needs to have less than 100kWh.

As you know, there are SUVs and CUVs, right? SUVs classically are like trucks, so cab on frame. Unibody SUVs are CUVs/crossovers, but most people and the government use size because a Porsche Cayenne/Touareg/Q7/Q8 are huge CUVs, so the definition (below) is broad. I feel like most people don't use CUV much, and if they use the word crossover then it is because the vehicle has used that in their name or is so identical to the car. Something that comes to mind is the Subaru Impreza hatchback versus the Subaru Crosstrek.

As you know, people like SUVs and SUVs because they have a commanding view of the road, have upright seats and are easier to get in and out of, which is easier on our big bellies, and are capable of off-roading, snow clearance and hauling more people comfortably or stowing a lot easily. They are the Swiss Army knife of vehicles for most people. The Model Y and Model 3 are similar to the Impreza and Crosstrek; there is a little more upright seating, a little more ground clearance, and a little difference in storage, although the Crosstrek has less storage volume than the Impreza hatch, ironically. The push to qualify some of these EVs as SUVs is to qualify them for federal tax credits, but if a Crosstrek is a SUV/CUV then so is a IONIQ 5 or Model Y. The ride height is less than a Crosstrek, but the cargo volume is a lot more.

https://www.cga.ct.gov/PS95/rpt/olr/htm/95-R-0062.htm

A light truck is considered to be an automobile other than a passenger automobile which is designed either for off-highway operation or to perform at least one of these functions: (1) transporting more than 10 people, (2) providing temporary living quarters, (3) transporting property on an open bed, (4) providing greater cargo-carrying than passenger-carrying volume, or (5) permitting expanded use of the automobile for cargo-carrying or other nonpassenger-carrying purposes through the removal of seats provided for this purpose by the manufacturer or through the use of simple tools, and thereby creating a flat, floor level surface inside the vehicle.

What counts as an SUV? Treasury shifts definition for EV tax credits after carmaker complaints
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...s/69842273007/

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I've been wondering about that. Since EV regulations are the same (am I right about that?) whether it's a car or a truck, can automakers stop pretending that some of their EVs are SUVs?

Ioniq 5, EV6, Model Y, Mach-E...can we stop pretending? My guess is no since people seem to flock to anything labeled "SUV".

Agreed. But what do/should we call them? My son has an Outback Wilderness. It’s not really easy to classify in a marketing based framework. Is it a car? Well, yes, but that’s not really a complete description. My wife’s Camry is a car. His outback is “different.”

I refer to it sometimes as a “robust station wagon.” He objects to that characterization and I can see why. He didn’t grow up with his parents borrowing a “vista cruiser” for a vacation trip, but he seems to have a cellular level allergy to the term. I can understand that.

Is the Model Y just a hatchback version of the 3? I don’t have any experience with either. But those cars are stuck in a curious middle ground. They’re not Broncos but they’re not Country Squires.

The English language has suffered greatly with the verbification of nouns. I guess we could reverse that trend and contort some poor verb into doing the job.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

What counts as an SUV? Treasury shifts definition for EV tax credits after carmaker complaints

That article is only partially correct. Treasury was doing some weird things outside what the rest of the government was doing to classify vehicles. For example, the Model Y qualified but only if it had a 3rd row until they changed it.

This portion shows the difficulty

Treasury had adopted a definition of SUVs that is used in federal Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards, which require vehicles to have a series of specific features, including "an extended roof line" to increase capacity, a trunk that is open to the passenger seating area, and at least one seat that can be "readily removed or folded" to create more trunk space.

All of that applied to the LYRIQ, which DOT had already classified as a SUV because of it. Treasury didn't classify the LYRIQ as an SUV.

I could make an argument that the LYRIQ is a "fat station wagon" (which it really is) but it also meets the requirements for an SUV. Had nothing todo with weight as it is under the weight category as well. However, it also isn't a Sedan either, which is what the lower price ceiling was aimed at.

Ultimately, the government really shouldn't have extended the tax credits at all at this point.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

Agreed. But what do/should we call them? My son has an Outback Wilderness. It’s not really easy to classify in a marketing based framework. Is it a car? Well, yes, but that’s not really a complete description. My wife’s Camry is a car. His outback is “different.”

I refer to it sometimes as a “robust station wagon.” He objects to that characterization and I can see why. He didn’t grow up with his parents borrowing a “vista cruiser” for a vacation trip, but he seems to have a cellular level allergy to the term. I can understand that.

Is the Model Y just a hatchback version of the 3? I don’t have any experience with either. But those cars are stuck in a curious middle ground. They’re not Broncos but they’re not Country Squires.

The English language has suffered greatly with the verbification of nouns. I guess we could reverse that trend and contort some poor verb into doing the job.

The Outback had always been a Legacy Station wagon. He just needs to look back on the history of the outback and he'll see it split off from the Legacy at one point and it became its own thing as the Outback instead of the Legacy Outback. Like how the Supra became its own thing after being a Celica Supra for a model year or two or even the Impreza and Crosstrek (well the Crosstrek was born from being a Impreza Outback...but then disappeared for awhile before Subaru brought back the raised Impreza and called it XV Crosstrek). I think when it became the Outback by itself, they were able to jack up the ground clearance a bit to give it a bit more differentiation from the standard Legacy, and so it became a socalled CUV/SUV of sorts.

But all those other in between cars...maybe they need t add the crossover CUV designation?