Irace86.2.0's KPower Turbo K24 Swap

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by DarkPira7e

Southbend clutches use stock flywheel. I have the Stage 3 daily, so far it's holding close to 300wtq so far, it will be turned up shortly so we'll see how it likes north of 350

The Exedy Stage 1 is holding the 300wtq I have now, but it may be a little tired, and it was already slipping when I was over-boosting a few psi higher than 10psi before throttle cut when my wastegate issue happened. Exedy is only rated at like 210tq at the flywheel, so obviously it is underrated and built for OEM longevity at quoted torque.

The Southbend is 400tq, so that could work. Organic disk and sprung are two big positives.

[DarkPira7e]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

The Exedy Stage 1 is holding the 300wtq I have now, but it may be a little tired, and it was already slipping when I was over-boosting a few psi higher than 10psi before throttle cut when my wastegate issue happened. Exedy is only rated at like 210tq at the flywheel, so obviously it is underrated and built for OEM longevity at quoted torque.

The Southbend is 400tq, so that could work. Organic disk and sprung are two big positives.

I was blown away by the holding power of the Exedy stage 1 I had. I never saw it slip because I replaced it when my engine went, knowing my goal was to exceed usable power. Incredible clutch designs

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by DarkPira7e

I was blown away by the holding power of the Exedy stage 1 I had. I never saw it slip because I replaced it when my engine went, knowing my goal was to exceed usable power. Incredible clutch designs

It is pretty good for the price too. I don’t know if the Southbend would exceed its quoted torque rating like the Exedy, but like I said, the Exedy seems to be quoting OEM longevity with regular use and not a real torque limit. Clearly the transmission can exceed the torque limit of like 176tq or something, so I think they are underrated because they need to last 200k miles or something. I would hate to get the Southbend to find its limit is a hard 400tq at the flywheel. That puts it around 320wtq and I’m about there with the Exedy.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by DarkPira7e

I was blown away by the holding power of the Exedy stage 1 I had. I never saw it slip because I replaced it when my engine went, knowing my goal was to exceed usable power. Incredible clutch designs

I guess the other thing is apparently Southbend uses Exedy clutches, but rebuilds them. I don’t know if the Southbend stage 3 is just an Exedy stage 1 or 2 pressure plate with the Exedy stage 1 organic disc that has been replaced with their components. Maybe I’ll email Southbend.

[DarkPira7e]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I guess the other thing is apparently Southbend uses Exedy clutches, but rebuilds them. I don’t know if the Southbend stage 3 is just an Exedy stage 1 or 2 pressure plate with the Exedy stage 1 organic disc that has been replaced with their components. Maybe I’ll email Southbend.

Yes, they use Exedy- that's why I chose them. I didn't realize they were reman/customized though.. hmm. I'd love to know the answer!

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by DarkPira7e

Yes, they use Exedy- that's why I chose them. I didn't realize they were reman/customized though.. hmm. I'd love to know the answer!

I emailed them.

My Exedy stage 1 looked like a slightly thicker toothed pressure plate with a different compound on the clutch disc when I compared it to the stock Exedy clutch. I don’t know if Exedy’s stage 1 and 2 are identical pressure plates with different clutch disc materials and shapes or if the fingers are actually thicker. I guess I’m wondering because if they are the same and the Southbend is using the same pressure plate then all I would need is a new clutch disc.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by DarkPira7e

Yes, they use Exedy- that's why I chose them. I didn't realize they were reman/customized though.. hmm. I'd love to know the answer!

I emailed Exedy too for clarification on whether their Stage 1 and 2 use different pressure plates or if they use the same PP with different discs, and they said the pressure plates are identical, but they just use different discs.

Regardless, Southbend emailed me. The Southbend Stage 3 Daily organic disc is listed as 400 fwtq on their website and the Stage 3 Endurance kevlar disc is 450 fwtq. The Endurance disc is what they recommended for daily use to hold my power goals. They said the drag 500 fwtq one would be miserable for daily use. They also said every kit is modified Exedy components. They said even their Stage 1 pressure plate is modified even though it uses the stock/Exedy organic disc. I emailed them back to make 100% sure the pressure plate is significantly different and not just a repainted Exedy part. It makes no sense to spend a grand on a clutch kit if I already own the same pressure plate and all that is different is the clutch disc. Same can be said for the difference between the Exedy Stage 1 and Stage 2; might as well just buy the disc since the pressure plates are identical, if someone was going to upgrade with them.


https://www.southbendclutch.com/reso...formance-kits/

[DarkPira7e]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I emailed Exedy too for clarification on whether their Stage 1 and 2 use different pressure plates or if they use the same PP with different discs, and they said the pressure plates are identical, but they just use different discs.

Regardless, Southbend emailed me. The Southbend Stage 3 Daily organic disc is listed as 400 fwtq on their website and the Stage 3 Endurance kevlar disc is 450 fwtq. The Endurance disc is what they recommended for daily use to hold my power goals. They said the drag 500 fwtq one would be miserable for daily use. They also said every kit is modified Exedy components. They said even their Stage 1 pressure plate is modified even though it uses the stock/Exedy organic disc. I emailed them back to make 100% sure the pressure plate is significantly different and not just a repainted Exedy part. It makes no sense to spend a grand on a clutch kit if I already own the same pressure plate and all that is different is the clutch disc. Same can be said for the difference between the Exedy Stage 1 and Stage 2; might as well just buy the disc since the pressure plates are identical, if someone was going to upgrade with them.


https://www.southbendclutch.com/reso...formance-kits/

Awesome that both companies were able to give some info!!! Thank you for the legwork, my pressure plate did seem identical to the exedy one but I wasn't examining too closely

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by DarkPira7e

Awesome that both companies were able to give some info!!! Thank you for the legwork, my pressure plate did seem identical to the exedy one but I wasn't examining too closely

Southbend got back to me again and confirmed that the pressure plates are modified for greater clamping force and not just the Exedy part that is painted and mated to a custom disc. For the Exedy Stage 1 and 2, I could just switch between their Stage 1 organic disc and Stage 2 three puck disc using the same pressure plate because they are the same, but for the Southbend, it isn't like I could just add their clutch disc with what I already have (Exedy's pressure plate) because I would be missing out on the extra clamping force from their pressure plate upgrades.

I remember measuring the fingers on the OEM vs Stage 1, and there was a slight increase in thickness in the sheet metal like a 14g vs 16g or something. If I go this route, I'll see if the metal is a different thickness, and I suppose I would know too by increased clamping force.

The question is do I wait and do a CD009 or T56 or BMW swap, or do I just do a second gen swap?

-Pros of the second gen swap:
--Compatibility with what I already have.
--About $2k for a clutch and used tranny.
--No major modifications needed.
--Uses 86 clutch kits.
--Uses thin and steel flywheel.
-Cons:
--Unknown/limited potential
--Less reliability.
--Can't work with dual clutch kits.

-Pros of CD009/T56/BMW swap:
--Higher potential
--More reliable
--More high tq clutch kits available
--Could sell old parts like adapter, trans mount, flywheel, etc.
-Cons:
--Price is probably a grand or two higher (used CD009), depending on resale value of what I have right now, but might be more for new CD009/Magnum.
--Likely using thicker flywheel meaning more vibration potential
--More cutting, hammering, modifying parts.

[Irace86.2.0]

On another note: I noticed that the fuel pressure gauge was showing fuel pressure in the forties on idle like around 48psi. It was like 62psi I thought, so I don't know why it is lower on idle. Despite the fuel pulse damper (FPD), it seems like the gauge is flickering again, but not as bad as it was before the FPD, yet not rock solid like it was after the FPD. I'm not sure if this is a problem or not or how long it has been low, or if it is a consequence of installing the fire ring and the tune is trying to correct something, or if the in-tank fuel pressure regulator is getting old or if the fuel filter is getting clogged or what, but I don't know that it matters because I will be removing everything very soon to do the return system conversion.

[DarkPira7e]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Southbend got back to me again and confirmed that the pressure plates are modified for greater clamping force and not just the Exedy part that is painted and mated to a custom disc. For the Exedy Stage 1 and 2, I could just switch between their Stage 1 organic disc and Stage 2 three puck disc using the same pressure plate because they are the same, but for the Southbend, it isn't like I could just add their clutch disc with what I already have (Exedy's pressure plate) because I would be missing out on the extra clamping force from their pressure plate upgrades.

I remember measuring the fingers on the OEM vs Stage 1, and there was a slight increase in thickness in the sheet metal like a 14g vs 16g or something. If I go this route, I'll see if the metal is a different thickness, and I suppose I would know too by increased clamping force.

The question is do I wait and do a CD009 or T56 or BMW swap, or do I just do a second gen swap?

-Pros of the second gen swap:
--Compatibility with what I already have.
--About $2k for a clutch and used tranny.
--No major modifications needed.
--Uses 86 clutch kits.
--Uses thin and steel flywheel.
-Cons:
--Unknown/limited potential
--Less reliability.
--Can't work with dual clutch kits.

-Pros of CD009/T56/BMW swap:
--Higher potential
--More reliable
--More high tq clutch kits available
--Could sell old parts like adapter, trans mount, flywheel, etc.
-Cons:
--Price is probably a grand or two higher (used CD009), depending on resale value of what I have right now, but might be more for new CD009/Magnum.
--Likely using thicker flywheel meaning more vibration potential
--More cutting, hammering, modifying parts.

You forgot for the 2nd gen swap pros- people on the forum will love you for trying! I've also seen ratios for the CD009 aren't well matched with our 4:10 FD and the gears become even shorter than they are now.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by DarkPira7e

You forgot for the 2nd gen swap pros- people on the forum will love you for trying! I've also seen ratios for the CD009 aren't well matched with our 4:10 FD and the gears become even shorter than they are now.

I won’t be near the limit compared to what others have already accomplished with the first gen transmission, some of them 500+whp. I can’t say how long things lasted. VitViper’s went north of 530whp for a while. Maybe the second gen will handle 450whp as a daily off track just fine, but I don’t know how much my experience would inform others.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97827


The CD009 is pretty close. Slightly shorter gearing.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...75&postcount=8

A used CD009 would be marginally more expensive in price than a second gen, depending on the miles, but way more miles. Definitely cheaper than a new T56 Magnum at $3.5k or a new CD009 at $2k, which is about the price of a new 86 tranny. I think I can get a low mileage second gen 86 tranny for $1.2k. A CD009 is $750-1750 depending on the miles, but most have 80K-150k miles at sub $1.2k. I would need a swap kit for $1.5k, clutch for $500-1000, transmission mounts, shifter, driveshaft, clutch fork/hydraulic kit. I’m thinking I could recover 50% of the value of my Kpower kit, so in the end, probably $2k more, which isn’t a big deal, but I’ll also need to modify the trans tunnel, probably remove interior bits to drill holes for the transmission mounts, bla bla.

Yeah, I’ll probably just do the second gen and then upgrade in the future if I need to upgrade for a bigger power build or track use, someday.

[captain awesome]

Has anyone confirmed the actual differences between a gen 1 and 2 trans yet? I've been tempted to snatch one up if a good deal presents itself, but I didn't think it was supposed to be that drastic of a change from a beefcake standpoint.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by captain awesome

Has anyone confirmed the actual differences between a gen 1 and 2 trans yet? I've been tempted to snatch one up if a good deal presents itself, but I didn't think it was supposed to be that drastic of a change from a beefcake standpoint.

Here we have some discussion. A lot of the links are dead, so I have to assume the OP was quoting the articles accurately. I feel like I read in the past that 4th gear wasn't necessarily weak, but the synchro or something causing the gear to displace would cause it to fail. They used shot peening on the pistons of the MY17+, so using shot peening on the gears doesn't sound unreasonable. I feel like I remember early press briefs with all the specifics on the upgrades from the first gen and people were talking about the improvements to the transmission, but it is hard to find now. Dead links or searches are muddled by new articles:

4th has a carbon synchro now, gears 1-6 sound like they are shot peened.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show....php?p=3451486

The specifications of MT are the same for both cars. It was the first issue, and various measures were applied, such as the difficulty of entering the second gear, the operability of the 2nd and the oblique shift of the 2nd and 4th gears and the durability of the 4th gear, and the improvement of the shift feel itself, and the impression is good.

https://autoc-one.jp/toyota/gr86/report-5010950/


Mentions 4th gear carbon synchro.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show....php?p=3546730