The 7th Gen Mustang S650 Has Officially Landed!!

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I said they could have built a modern version of the Mustang at <3300 lb., I'll stick by that. The structure required to react torque from the driveline isn't as great as what's required to give the car a reasonably highish stiffness against road loads and natural frequency.

Coyote might actually be narrower than the flat-4 FA, could be mounted further aft as the V-engine provides clearance for steering shaft, and also with the crankshaft a lot lower. Not saying it will fit in the existing engine bay, but it wouldn't necessarily have to make the engine bay much if any wider, and perhaps a bit longer with front wheels shoved forward a couple/few inches for weight distribution.
But lo, it looks like it *does* fit in the FT86:
https://www.drivingline.com/articles...v8-scion-fr-s/

Do I think Ford could make essentially a +460 lb. heavier V8 FT86 if they wanted to? Honestly I don't think they'd have any problem doing that.

If you think they could then why is a Lotus 3,200 pounds with a bare bones car with a smaller engine when the ethos of Lotus is to be light weight? Why would Ford adopt such an ethos for a car that was designed to be a sporty version of a sedan? The vehicle was meant to support high horsepower and big American bodies, not the same as a small Japanese car like the 86.

My first car was a 61 Valiant, similar to the Falcon/Mustang in size and weight. It was far bigger than the 86 in every dimension. The wheelbase on the 64 Mustang is 108”. It is a foot longer than the 86. Its weight isn’t because it was small or trying to be light weight. It was a product of the times because everything was lighter.

I appreciate that Papadakis managed to shoehorn the Coyote in the engine bay, but a swap isn’t reflective of what could be done for a factory car to clear the firewall, hood, clear the stock headers and emissions components, to have a production oil pan, etc. BTW, what does that swap weigh? The article doesn’t say. Seems like they beefed up the transmission, driveshaft and axles. I bet the front end suspension needed some upgrades. I wonder how it handles now too. I felt the difference from my Harrop SC and feel the difference with my K24, despite the K24 being lighter. I think it is easy to say they could do it in the 86 chassis for a car with 300-700hp with several different engines, when they have no reason or history of wanting to build such a small Mustang. They could build a 2500lb Factory Five car too, but they don’t because they don’t want to build such a vehicle.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

If you think they could then why is a Lotus 3,200 pounds with a bare bones car with a smaller engine when the ethos of Lotus is to be light weight?

Ford has tons more capacity for engineering development than Lotus, and also Lotus wanted to move away from the kit-car nature of the divine Elise to appeal to more buyers.

Why would Ford adopt such an ethos for a car that was designed to be a sporty version of a sedan?

If they have been happy with sales of the oversized/overweight Mustangs since 2005 and not risk moving the car to a different niche, they'd have no good reason to.

The vehicle was meant to support high horsepower and big American bodies, not the same as a small Japanese car.

Big horsepower can be supported in smaller lighterweight platforms. Again, curb weight and road loads from that are more drivers than power/torque.

I appreciate that Papadakis managed to shoehorn the Coyote in the engine bay, but a swap isn’t reflective of what could be done for a factory car to clear the firewall, hood, clear the stock headers and emissions components, to have a production oil pan, etc.

OEM would have far better ways to make the engine fit. Yeah, the hood would most likely have to be longer and higher further forward to meet pedestrian impact regs.

BTW, what does that swap weigh? The article doesn’t say. Seems like they beefed up the transmission, driveshaft and axles.

I'm sure it's a Tremec 6-speed trans. FWIW FA20 + trans weight = 480 lb. Coyote + TR6060 should be ~585 lb., so +105 right there.

I bet the front end suspension needed some upgrades. I wonder how it handles now too.

Stiffer springs and damping, no biggie. Handling balance can be easily maintained with springs/sways. They say it's 54F/46R but I'd bet it's more like 56F/44R. Not ideal... I'd wanna move front and possibly also rear wheels forward a couple/few inches if I was building a factory V8 FT86...

...they have no reason or history of wanting to build such a small Mustang. They could build a 2500lb Factory Five car too, but they don’t because they don’t want to build such a vehicle.

Yeah, because 2500 lb. Mustang makey no sense then any weight less than 3850 lb. makey no sense because same thing. OK...

As for history, I hesitate to go over it again but in the 80s thru early 90s there was indeed a 3200 lb. 5.0 (er, 4.9) Mustang at the same time as there was a 2800 lb. FT86 equivalent. Also 64-66 were lightweights, as were the hated Mustang II era cars (so fugly inside and out). So such cars *are* in their history...

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Ford has tons more capacity for engineering development than Lotus, and also Lotus wanted to move away from the kit-car nature of the divine Elise to appeal to more buyers.

If they have been happy with sales of the oversized/overweight Mustangs since 2005 and not risk moving the car to a different niche, they'd have no good reason to.

Big horsepower can be supported in smaller lighterweight platforms. Again, curb weight and road loads from that are more drivers than power/torque.

OEM would have far better ways to make the engine fit. Yeah, the hood would most likely have to be longer and higher further forward to meet pedestrian impact regs.

I'm sure it's a Tremec 6-speed trans. FWIW FA20 + trans weight = 480 lb. Coyote + TR6060 should be ~585 lb., so +105 right there.

Stiffer springs and damping, no biggie. Handling balance can be easily maintained with springs/sways. They say it's 54F/46R but I'd bet it's more like 56F/44R. Not ideal... I'd wanna move front and possibly also rear wheels forward a couple/few inches if I was building a factory V8 FT86...



Yeah, because 2500 lb. Mustang makey no sense then any weight less than 3850 lb. makey no sense because same thing. OK...

As for history, I hesitate to go over it again but in the 80s thru early 90s there was indeed a 3200 lb. 5.0 (er, 4.9) Mustang at the same time as there was a 2800 lb. FT86 equivalent. Also 64-66 were lightweights, as were the hated Mustang II era cars (so fugly inside and out). So such cars *are* in their history...

The Lotus Evora is missing a lot that the Mustang has and is on an aluminum bonded chassis m, which is why I brought it up. It isn’t because Lotus doesn’t have the resources Ford has.

Listen, we are getting away from the point I was making in response to the statement that the original Mustang was light weight with an ethos of being light, when all it was then was a reskinned compact sedan akin to what it is today, which isn’t going to be light. Based on the weight of the FWD compacts from Ford or based on other RWD compacts, the Mustang is on par today in proportion to what it was originally.

Regardless, your weights are a little off on a fully dressed Coyote engine, clutch system, transmission, but irregardless, there is no way a Coyote is going in an 86 chassis while maintaining the weight even close. Even Toyota has said a turbo 86 would be much heavier, let along a V8 with three times the torque and the passenger space for large Americans. The Corvette C7 base barely gets to what you are asking using fiberglass body, aluminum chassis and other lightweight compounds, so while I would love to see more light weight cars with stronger powertrains and believe some of it is possible, what you are asking is not likely for a “cheap” sporty car or consistent with the ethos of the Mustang at any point in its history.

You are suggesting a Mustang from today could weigh the same as a Mustang from the late 80’s early 90’s when it had half the power and wasn’t the DOHC D4S-style behemoth it is today, nor does it have anything near what the car has today, and you say it is possible because the s13 was just as light then as the 86 is today, so the Mustang could be as light as the Foxbody… this is bad math. I had a five lug S14, and it was bare bones with far less than the 86 on old sheet metal with similar power. The Foxbody was on the heals of the oil crisis in the early 80’s. Different times with a different mandate. More of the exception to the rule and not an apples to apples comparison.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Teseo

Hope Ford sell them without dealerships, MSRP no bullshit or whatsoever.

LOL

LOL

LOL

LOL



just saw a cargo spec transit van, MSRP was $38k. there was a market adjustment that put it at $52k.

they were at the gas station filling it up as part of completing the sale.

[Irace86.2.0]

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/sly-fox...tang-throwback

It's a second instrument cluster design programmed to resemble the dual analog gauges featured in the 1987-1993 third-generation "Fox Body" cars immortalized in Vanilla Ice song "Rollin' In My 5.0."

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/sly-fox...tang-throwback

"immortalized in Vanilla Ice song"

These words do not belong in the same sentence!

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

"immortalized in Vanilla Ice song"

These words do not belong in the same sentence!

do you feel old now?

give it another week!



*i do have issues with any song being "immortalized" while the band members are still alive*

[bcj]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

These words do not belong in the same sentence!

Would "Consigned to the landfill" convey the actual experience?

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by bcj

Would "Consigned to the landfill" convey the actual experience?

i think that's unfair to ice, or vanilla for that matter.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by soundman98

i think that's unfair to ice, or vanilla for that matter.

Oh just stop, collaborate and listen.

[soundman98]

yeah, it's nice the mustang is back with a brand new invention