Driving at the limit and slip angle

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by andys_garage

You can probably find all this in speed secrets - I haven't read the book but I spoke with Ross recently and have my own expertise here


It's easy to saturate tires, it's hard to drive right at the edge of the traction circle, which is where the peak grip is.


If you're turning your wheel more and more and more and getting no more rotation, it's because you're already past the peak - no matter how far you turn the wheel the tire is gonna generate the same amount of force. Unwind the wheel.


If you're spinning your rears but you don't wanna spin your rears, lift a little.



If you're trail braking but somehow still understeering, lift off the brakes or unwind the wheel. If you're getting a lot of power oversteer, you got back to the gas too fast while the car is still rotating.



This is all improved with seat time.


Eventually you start to understand how to maximize vertical load on the axle you care about - brake or lift to shift weight forward and give front axle more grip potential. hit the gas to shift weight backwards and straighten the car out.


In the below plots, Fy-SA is lateral grip, you can see the peaks increase with load increases (going from blue to red is higher vertical load). Same with drive/brake on the Fx-SR (slip ratio) plot. Bigger peaks = bigger friction circle.
Notice also, that the force drops off after the peak.




Side note I've heard that the falkens heat cycle out quickly, way before tread is fully worn.

Reciting theory, and then applying it while under stress are two completely different things. Especially while learning. Having someone in the car observing and talking you through the session and then breaking down your sessions is a total game changer.

The RT’s drop off a bit after the first cycle but don’t last long enough to cycle out.

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by EndlessAzure

. But don't mistake being at your personal limit to be the same as being on the absolute limit.

.

^^^^this. This is where coaching comes in.

[andys_garage]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Reciting theory, and then applying it while under stress are two completely different things.

Fully agree, op seemed like he wanted to understand the theory a little better to me. The practical advice is that it sounds like he's asking too much of his tires.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by andys_garage

Fully agree, op seemed like he wanted to understand the theory a little better to me. The practical advice is that it sounds like he's asking too much of his tires.

My bad, mistook you for the OP.

[raisingAnarchy]

Originally Posted by andyk5

As far as coaching, I agree 100% with your point. Coaching that I’ve found were , as I said on my original post, either free/cheap and not very useful or super expensive like fly the guy out to the track, pay for hotel and pay for his time kinda of deals. I guess I can try to look for opportunities in between the two.

You should give your complementary NASA (national auto sport association) membership a shot especially if you're near SoCal. I'm in the great lakes region, and I cannot believe how cheap your NASA events are in SoCal.


https://members.drivenasa.com/events/3734#register-sec


NASA is generally regarded as having a very high quality driver's ed program, focused on getting you into racing of some form, or instructing. If $300 for a weekend of track time +instruction is more expensive than what you're paying now, then DM me where you live so I can move there too lol


If NASA doesn't do it for you, Gridlife, PCA, AudiClub, BMWCCA, and Chin Track Days all offer driver's ed programs open to anyone with any car.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by raisingAnarchy

You should give your complementary NASA (national auto sport association) membership a shot especially if you're near SoCal. I'm in the great lakes region, and I cannot believe how cheap your NASA events are in SoCal.


https://members.drivenasa.com/events/3734#register-sec


NASA is generally regarded as having a very high quality driver's ed program, focused on getting you into racing of some form, or instructing. If $300 for a weekend of track time +instruction is more expensive than what you're paying now, then DM me where you live so I can move there too lol


If NASA doesn't do it for you, Gridlife, PCA, AudiClub, BMWCCA, and Chin Track Days all offer driver's ed programs open to anyone with any car.

SoCal has uniquely cheap track time. $300/day will get you a track day at Laguna Seca!

If you don't mind low quality seat time, sub-$100 Streets of Willow days are a thing.

[Pat]

And four days at Laguna Seca costs the same as a season pass in Colorado.

[strat61caster]

Shit now I know I’ve been away from the track too long, my last Laguna track day was $175

[SCFD]

I'm new to the RWD platform but I would say the car starts to 'feel light' at the end where you're getting some slip angle. You may be able to visually see the change in direction as well.

I don't know how to explain the "how" but being able to feel the slip angle or limit is based on your sensitivity as a driver. Being able to see/feel the cues would depend on your experience, skill, and talent.

[andyk5]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

SoCal has uniquely cheap track time. $300/day will get you a track day at Laguna Seca!

If you don't mind low quality seat time, sub-$100 Streets of Willow days are a thing.

Most track days at Laguna “that I have seen” been about $400 a day.

I have never been there but my buddies who have done it on street bikes swear its the best track ever etc…


What makes Laguna Seca better then a place like buttonwillow. I assume facilities, maybe size of track and layout?


Also I am all for a $100 SoW track day, though its probably gonna have 7+ run groups with 1 hour 45 minute between each session.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by andyk5

What makes Laguna Seca better then a place like buttonwillow. I assume facilities, maybe size of track and layout?

In my opinion it's not better. And the four other Rocky Mountain 86CUPers I drove it with agree. Both are fun tracks, but in very different ways.

[jflogerzi]

I think overall Sonoma is the best track in CA. But BW is a close second and way closer for me.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by andyk5

What makes Laguna Seca better then a place like buttonwillow. I assume facilities, maybe size of track and layout?


Also I am all for a $100 SoW track day, though its probably gonna have 7+ run groups with 1 hour 45 minute between each session.

Laguna holds a lot of racing history and for many, that is the allure. Personally, I love Laguna. I base my driving progress on how I'm doing there. You HAVE to hit your marks there or the lap is toast. I like all Calif tacks except Streets. Many of the cheap days there bring out some very questionable drivers and cars.

[andyk5]

Originally Posted by TommyW

Laguna holds a lot of racing history and for many, that is the allure. Personally, I love Laguna. I base my driving progress on how I'm doing there. You HAVE to hit your marks there or the lap is toast. I like all Calif tacks except Streets. Many of the cheap days there bring out some very questionable drivers and cars.

How dare you call me Questionable!!!!