New ICE Vehicles Banned in California by 2035

[chipmunk]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

That's not really true. The market drives for efficiency but neglects external costs. Read on the tragedy of the commons as a good example of why the market sometimes needs intervention.

Efficiency actually drives OEMs to build the vehicles. If the cost isn't apparent in $, it will be in other ways. Just the past 2 years has shown the world what happens when you depend too much on 1 country for raw materials. Some country are more efficient with one source of energy, while other geographies might be different. Trying to force a geography into something that it isn't built for, is not efficient. When you have 1 country controlling 70-80% of raw materials for batteries, that's gonna turn out pretty expensive as well.
https://www.autoblog.com/2022/08/13/...n-energy-cost/

[chipmunk]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

We're already witnessing a disaster first hand, almost entirely brought to you by the left leaning side of most "western" governments.

Some (most) people don't realize that they're being played. The same crowd that has convinced them of EVs are the same ones flying private jets around.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by chipmunk

Are we gonna have a fully developed grid to support the EV needs by 2035?

If I knew that, I guess I would be one of the "jet flying" overlords. Ultimately, I'm asking who do you think will solve the problem you are presenting?

[chipmunk]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

If I knew that, I guess I would be one of the "jet flying" overlords. Ultimately, I'm asking who do you think will solve the problem you are presenting?

The question is - what exactly is the problem anyway? Without getting political, can someone describe the problem scientifically, with evidence? Is the problem the depleting petroleum? Or is the problem the emissions form petroleum? Or is the problem how do we find an alternative sustainable source that doesn't pollute the atmosphere?

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by chipmunk

The question is - what exactly is the problem anyway? Without getting political, can someone describe the problem scientifically, with evidence? Is the problem the depleting petroleum? Or is the problem the emissions form petroleum? Or is the problem how do we find an alternative sustainable source that doesn't pollute the atmosphere?

You asked who was going to build the electric infrastructure to match the increase in EVs, and that left to their own accord the masses would solve it (in a round about that's the way it read in my head sort of way).

Ultimately, I don't know. I thought the real answer was hydrogen fuel cells but I've been outvoted.

I think the real answer remains Mr. Fusion.

[chipmunk]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

You asked who was going to build the electric infrastructure to match the increase in EVs, and that left to their own accord the masses would solve it (in a round about that's the way it read in my head sort of way).

Ultimately, I don't know. I thought the real answer was hydrogen fuel cells but I've been outvoted.

I think the real answer remains Mr. Fusion.

My real concern is - how does a country stay fully self-reliant and self-sustained while being ethical and cause least damage to the environment? As such, if crude oil doesn't fit the bill, when what next. Electricity is definitely not the solution. The US might not be directly affected by the mining, but the exporters are. That's unethical. Moreover, being a net importer of energy is a terrible idea, something that became even more obvious in the recent years.

I'm not fully aware of the challenges of hydrogen power. How does one refuel hydrogen? Do you just swap out the cylinder? Filling liquid gasoline is much easier than gaseous hydrogen, since the leaks can't be managed.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by chipmunk

My real concern is - how does a country stay fully self-reliant and self-sustained while being ethical and cause least damage to the environment? As such, if crude oil doesn't fit the bill, when what next. Electricity is definitely not the solution. The US might not be directly affected by the mining, but the exporters are. That's unethical. Moreover, being a net importer of energy is a terrible idea, something that became even more obvious in the recent years.

I'm not fully aware of the challenges of hydrogen power. How does one refuel hydrogen? Do you just swap out the cylinder? Filling liquid gasoline is much easier than gaseous hydrogen, since the leaks can't be managed.

There’s too many of us for anything to be sustainable.

[chipmunk]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

There’s too many of us for anything to be sustainable.

Ironically, none of those who complain about too much population has ever volunteered to solve the problem starting with themselves.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by chipmunk

Ironically, none of those who complain about too much population has ever volunteered to solve the problem starting with themselves.

I have no kids, no intent to

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by chipmunk

My real concern is - how does a country stay fully self-reliant and self-sustained while being ethical and cause least damage to the environment? As such, if crude oil doesn't fit the bill, when what next. Electricity is definitely not the solution. The US might not be directly affected by the mining, but the exporters are. That's unethical. Moreover, being a net importer of energy is a terrible idea, something that became even more obvious in the recent years.

I'm not fully aware of the challenges of hydrogen power. How does one refuel hydrogen? Do you just swap out the cylinder? Filling liquid gasoline is much easier than gaseous hydrogen, since the leaks can't be managed.

I think hydrogen stations are liquified hydrogen.
Problem is they get super cold and when its done filling a hydrogen car the nozzle might get stuck cuz it froze to the car's nozzle lol.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

I think hydrogen stations are liquified hydrogen.
Problem is they get super cold and when its done filling a hydrogen car the nozzle might get stuck cuz it froze to the car's nozzle lol.

The problem I have seen with hydrogen is people have stuck them with the stigma that they are very dangerous. Ultimately I would like to see more investment in other options besides pure BEV.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by chipmunk

The question is - what exactly is the problem anyway? Without getting political, can someone describe the problem scientifically, with evidence? Is the problem the depleting petroleum? Or is the problem the emissions form petroleum? Or is the problem how do we find an alternative sustainable source that doesn't pollute the atmosphere?

this is entirely different questions than you were asking before.


is the problem depleting petroleum?
it is a significant concern--as the population expands, more people use a finite resource, so there's less of that resource available.

curiously, lithium and cobalt are also finite resources, but are currently viewed as nearly-infinite. the same as oil was in the early 1900's...

the emissions from gas burning are a definite concern as well.

i think that 'we're'(as a species) looking for an ideal energy source that burns nothing, costs nothing, and emits nothing, but provides limitless power.

but the first law of thermodynamics directly contradicts this.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by chipmunk

I'm not fully aware of the challenges of hydrogen power. How does one refuel hydrogen? Do you just swap out the cylinder? Filling liquid gasoline is much easier than gaseous hydrogen, since the leaks can't be managed.

Primarily it's in its production and right now the easiest method is using natural gas to produce it. Some will argue that it complicates the process as in the end its an inefficient means to get to what is basically an electric car.

The supply chain is very similar to gasoline, right down to pumping it into the vehicle. The output is water.

It also has the issue that Musk was not a fan, and did not want to go that route.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by chipmunk

Some (most) people don't realize that they're being played. The same crowd that has convinced them of EVs are the same ones flying private jets around.

OHHHH THERE IT IS.
As soon as these words are uttered I know there is no point in even trying to explain anything since the argument will just change and nothing but a spewing sea of rhetoric can be expected.