Track Day Excessive Oil Temp for factory recommended 0w-20 persists

[Frost]

Originally Posted by TommyW

This "well the oil can handle it" narrative is almost comical. Heat is the enemy in almost all mechanical applications. Oil is not really even in the overall equation. Go to any track. The hoods are open to let heat out and never open because, well things are just too darn cool.

Heat isn't actually the enemy. It just depends on what the effects of said heat are. Case and point - check out the Blackbird and how heat seals the leaking body panels (https://aero-space.us/2020/02/15/her...fuel%20bladder.)

In this post, someone said "Track Day Oil Temp Problem Persists" so that assumes the following point:

The new twin overheats the oil. This so far has no definitive proof. Even the original twins without oil coolers seem to work fine. Overheat would mean the oil runs too thin and causes internal damage due to lack of lubrication.

If the oil is designed for 300F operating temps, then assuming the grade is correct, should provide as designed lubrication. Therefore the point is moot.

No one is saying opening the hood is bad. That's a red herring point.

[s30series]

Originally Posted by Frost

Heat isn't actually the enemy. It just depends on what the effects of said heat are. Case and point - check out the Blackbird and how heat seals the leaking body panels (https://aero-space.us/2020/02/15/her...fuel%20bladder.)

In this post, someone said "Track Day Oil Temp Problem Persists" so that assumes the following point:

The new twin overheats the oil. This so far has no definitive proof. Even the original twins without oil coolers seem to work fine. Overheat would mean the oil runs too thin and causes internal damage due to lack of lubrication.

If the oil is designed for 300F operating temps, then assuming the grade is correct, should provide as designed lubrication. Therefore the point is moot.

No one is saying opening the hood is bad. That's a red herring point.

Again, I'm sure Subaru designed the FA20 and FA24 engine oil system to use 300 degree oil... because the FA20 never had oil pressure issues....https://elementtuning.com/2015/01/08...20-or-fa20dit/

[mistople]

Tl;dr we’ll just have to wait and see

[OwlDance]

Telling someone to not run oil cooling for a tracked FA20 is like telling someone they don't need water to run a marathon.
I've seen too many people scattered across the net with their "new" 100k+ mile 13s blow engines because "they were driving pretty hard" with friends. Must be slapping that oil cooler into the next gen for no reason right?

[Danny318]

Because it is not a problem

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by Frost

Heat isn't actually the enemy. It just depends on what the effects of said heat are. Case and point - check out the Blackbird and how heat seals the leaking body panels (https://aero-space.us/2020/02/15/her...fuel%20bladder.)

In this post, someone said "Track Day Oil Temp Problem Persists" so that assumes the following point:

The new twin overheats the oil. This so far has no definitive proof. Even the original twins without oil coolers seem to work fine. Overheat would mean the oil runs too thin and causes internal damage due to lack of lubrication.

If the oil is designed for 300F operating temps, then assuming the grade is correct, should provide as designed lubrication. Therefore the point is moot.

No one is saying opening the hood is bad. That's a red herring point.

Ehhhhh, not buyin it.

I’ll happily stick to my 230-240 temps.

[stilesg57]

Originally Posted by OwlDance

…Must be slapping that oil cooler into the next gen for no reason right?

I don’t know much about this platform but I have heard plenty about the cooling issues. I agree with you and see the inclusion of an oil cooler in the new one as a recognition of this history as well as having the added benefit of making the 2nd gen a better platform from the factory for aftermarket FI.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by s30series

Again, I'm sure Subaru designed the FA20 and FA24 engine oil system to use 300 degree oil... because the FA20 never had oil pressure issues....https://elementtuning.com/2015/01/08...20-or-fa20dit/

Nice funny.

Subaru / Toyota designed that exactly for what it needs to be to survive the basic elements without excessive over costing.

Does that mean extra oil cooling isn't good? Nope. Different parameters of design. They've done just what is needed for the car to be sold as OEM without shooting themselves in the foot for reliability for their market.

We're totally making a mountain out of a mole hill here. You're gonna track this thing in 45-50 deg C weather in endurance racing? Go ahead, slap on a cooler but it'd be foolish to assume this is the design criteria from the factory.

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by s30series

Again, I'm sure Subaru designed the FA20 and FA24 engine oil system to use 300 degree oil... because the FA20 never had oil pressure issues....https://elementtuning.com/2015/01/08...20-or-fa20dit/

Some misinformation floating around here leading to arguments with no conclusion. I think the biggest of all is the argument of hot oil in our platform being a problem.

It has been long discussed in oil threads that the biggest problem with our platform was cavitation and the fact that oil pressures did not rise linearly to the increase of RPM at high oil temps - in fact they plummeted near the top - low oil pressures at extremely high rpm = bad.

The link you post does not focus on this information and therefore does not relate to the issue at hand, as it is not the hot oil temperatures that are causing this, but rather the poor oiling design within the engine. Hot oil is not the issue... cavitation is.

Currently no one knows (I think?) about the changes in the new engine in terms of oil flow, and I would be EXTREMELY curious to see if this problem was resolved. But I fear not, as this has not been addressed in any of the detailed talks about the new gen. Either way, we'll see when people start slapping pressure gauges on and analyzing.

People like ZDan and many others, including me, run hot oil temps on low viscosity oils just fine and have been doing it for tens of thousands of miles without issues. In some ways, that goes to show that EVEN with such a (major IMO) problem as oil cavitation at such hot oil temperatures, our platform is able to handle it quite well and reliably for most folks.

Also, stating that the FA20/FA24 tolerances, oil pump, etc., were not designed to withstand high oil temps sounds like a FAT guess at something you don't know. Our platform rises in temps quickly when pushed, I am sure the engineers did not pass that down during testing. We are not talking about temps of 300F+ anyways, it was simply stated that modern synthetic oil can handle these temps without a problem.

No one is saying you shouldn't get an oil cooler especially if you are taking this car out to the track a lot. But I do believe that an oil cooler is not REQUIRED for the majority of drivers for this platform - hence why it was not used in Gen2 for the obvious reason being additional cost.

[MrSkubi]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

Sucks, but just gotta plan to either delete the stock cooler and go with an air cooler or cut the lip off the stock oil cooler and put a sandwich plate on that.

You can get sandwich plate spacer (Mocal for example) and use thermostatic plate on top of that. Personally I'm running OEM air/water cooler in conjunction with Setrab thermostatic plate for my external air to oil cooler. No issues or leaks so far.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by s30series

Again, I'm sure Subaru designed the FA20 and FA24 engine oil system to use 300 degree oil... because the FA20 never had oil pressure issues....https://elementtuning.com/2015/01/08...20-or-fa20dit/

Oil pressure, oil delivery issues, are not strictly related to oil temperature. As mentioned a buncha times, if you run the appropriate viscosity for the operational temperatures, the oil won't be "too thin".

If sufficient oil isn't getting to the bearings due to how the oil flow through the engine is designed, you're as likely to have problems whether you have an oil cooler or not (again, assuming appropriate oil viscosity for operational temps). Tracked FT86s *with* oil coolers have had oil-starvation related engine failures. If a tracked car *without* a cooler has an oil-related failure, that does not necessarily mean the oil is "too hot".

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by OwlDance

Telling someone to not run oil cooling for a tracked FA20 is like telling someone they don't need water to run a marathon.

This analogy may be appropriate in the opposite way vs. what you think! Far more people running marathons suffer from OVERhydration than dehydration:
Every Year, More Athletes Are Injured By Hyponatremia than Dehydration
https://www.mdalert.com/article/ever...an-dehydration

The "conventional wisdom" is not always right...

I've seen too many people scattered across the net with their "new" 100k+ mile 13s blow engines because "they were driving pretty hard" with friends.

That doesn't mean it was due to not having an oil cooler (though many jump to that conclusion). '13s definitely had the most issues. Failures of used 100k mile '13s with unknown histories being driven by the kinds of people who (apparently) go out and "drive hard with friends"? I'd hardly call that conclusive evidence that an oil cooler will solve any and all problems...

Must be slapping that oil cooler into the next gen for no reason right?

Its primary function is likely the same as it is on the Forester: to get the oil up to temp quicker.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Its primary function is likely the same as it is on the Forester: to get the oil up to temp quicker.

THANK YOU.

My S2k has the same OEM sandwich plate using the coolant to WARM up the oil faster. Does it help cool? Meh. More like shave the peak off maybe.

"Bruh, I thought heat was the problem!"

As any engineer would tell you, they design for operating temps, viscosity at said temps and properties of the surfaces in proximity.

[stilesg57]

Originally Posted by Frost

My S2k has the same OEM sandwich plate using the coolant to WARM up the oil faster. Does it help cool? Meh. More like shave the peak off maybe.

But that’s still both: it reduces time spent at both the hot and cold extremes and keeps the operating temp nearer the engineered target/range for a longer period of time. It’s still a benefit to cooling — it’s not misnamed that badly.

Isn’t the takeaway here that the new one, ceteris paribus (and I recognize that’s a BIG assumption), should have fewer oil temp issues than the previous gen? I’m acknowledging issues like oil starvation popped plenty of FA20 motors too, but 15 minutes in the FI forum or a couple old Savagegeese vids sure show a lot of temp issues with the 1st gen car and this seems like a design aimed at least partially towards mitigating that.