86 Japan Live - Tons of GR86 and BRZ

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by boy_racer

Europe has high taxes in a lot of countries,above 2000cc.

I wonder if they could sell the 2nd gen with FA20.
Perhaps with minor changes to share more stuff with FA24.

[falcon_wizard]

It quite interesting to see the Gen2 has already been supercharged and turbocharged. I’m curious to find out how they were able to deal with the 13.5 static compression ratio of the new motor…

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by falcon_wizard

It quite interesting to see the Gen2 has already been supercharged and turbocharged. I’m curious to find out how they were able to deal with the 13.5 static compression ratio of the new motor…

According to Toyota, it is 12.5 (same as previous gen). Though it seems to be confusing with Subaru at the time posting 13.5, I do believe this was a mistake that got spread around everywhere.

[falcon_wizard]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

According to Toyota, it is 12.5 (same as previous gen). Though it seems to be confusing with Subaru at the time posting 13.5, I do believe this was a mistake that got spread around everywhere.

I was wondering about that… that would be good news if it stayed at 12.5, as there is lots of experience with boosting at that CR, especially where E85 is not available…

Some websites actually report that GR86 and BRZ have different CRs, while this is not impossible, it would be surprising… we shall see…

[weederr33]

[Lantanafrs2]

So they hand these things out to tuners to develop parts that will void the warranty. Be nice if they'd get them to the consumers first.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

I wonder if they could sell the 2nd gen with FA20.
Perhaps with minor changes to share more stuff with FA24.

The European market where this would have the most impact is very tiny. The costs of having two engines just would not be justified.
Need to remember that contrary to popular belief the FA24 is not the same engine as the FA20. Many people seem to think they are just a bigger yet identical engine.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

So they hand these things out to tuners to develop parts that will void the warranty. Be nice if they'd get them to the consumers first.

They did that with GEN1 as well. By the time of release there was a already growing market of available 3rd party stuff.

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The European market where this would have the most impact is very tiny. The costs of having two engines just would not be justified.
Need to remember that contrary to popular belief the FA24 is not the same engine as the FA20. Many people seem to think they are just a bigger yet identical engine.

There's a 1.5L version of ND Miata, right?
As for FA20 vs FA24 compatibility — sure. However, there's also a difference between after-the-fact engine swap, and a factory-designed interchangeability. I can't imagine the 1st gen and 2nd gen bodies to be so dramatically different that they couldn't design how to support both FA20 and FA24.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

There's a 1.5L version of ND Miata, right?
As for FA20 vs FA24 compatibility — sure. However, there's also a difference between after-the-fact engine swap, and a factory-designed interchangeability. I can't imagine the 1st gen and 2nd gen bodies to be so dramatically different that they couldn't design how to support both FA20 and FA24.

Miata is a different car with different investments and paybacks. Once upon a time you could buy a Mopar and have a choice of 6 different powerplants but those days are gone. It just costs more to have different engines than it is worth unless you can cover it with volume.
The factory does not design for interchangeability. There are many more factors than if an engine will just fit into the body to consider. This is why we never saw a pile of WRX/STi engine swaps even though you would think a Subaru engine is a Subaru engine and they should all just drop in. They don't and even at the factory level it adds cost to have that ability. Do you want a $45,000 twin? Because that is how you end up with them

[HuntingtonFRS]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Miata is a different car with different investments and paybacks. Once upon a time you could buy a Mopar and have a choice of 6 different powerplants but those days are gone. It just costs more to have different engines than it is worth unless you can cover it with volume.
The factory does not design for interchangeability. There are many more factors than if an engine will just fit into the body to consider. This is why we never saw a pile of WRX/STi engine swaps even though you would think a Subaru engine is a Subaru engine and they should all just drop in. They don't and even at the factory level it adds cost to have that ability. Do you want a $45,000 twin? Because that is how you end up with them

This is just a lot of talking.

And claiming the European market is too small for a smaller engine is ludicrous. As mentioned above, Mazda offers the 1.5 there and it does very well. Europe loves this kind of stuff. It’s the US that hates small engines and cars.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by HuntingtonFRS

This is just a lot of talking.

And claiming the European market is too small for a smaller engine is ludicrous. As mentioned above, Mazda offers the 1.5 there and it does very well. Europe loves this kind of stuff. It’s the US that hates small engines and cars.

Unlike the whole "They should make a bunch of engines because they can easily and I know since I read the internet"?

How many Twins did they sell in Europe over the run? I didn't say that they couldn't but that it doesn't make economic sense to add the manufacturing costs for two engines.

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Miata is a different car with different investments and paybacks.

Please elaborate.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

This is why we never saw a pile of WRX/STi engine swaps even though you would think a Subaru engine is a Subaru engine and they should all just drop in.

From what I recall, one of the challenges with FA20DIT in a BRZ body
is that the exhaust manifold is mirrored since it's a turbo engine.
And I believe there are successful FA20DIT swaps?
Doesn't feel like a great example here.

I don't anticipate FA20 and FA24 to be super different from the packaging perspective.
Hard to swap between generations? Maybe.
Hard/expensive to design a car that would fit either? I don't think so.

Either way, it will be to learn from the experience of folks who
try FA20<->FA24 swaps.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

Please elaborate.



From what I recall, one of the challenges with FA20DIT in a BRZ body
is that the exhaust manifold is mirrored since it's a turbo engine.
And I believe there are successful FA20DIT swaps?
Doesn't feel like a great example here.

I don't anticipate FA20 and FA24 to be super different from the packaging perspective.
Hard to swap between generations? Maybe.
Hard/expensive to design a car that would fit either? I don't think so.

Either way, it will be to learn from the experience of folks who
try FA20<->FA24 swaps.

The only elbaration is that just because one car has something doesn't mean it is automatically easy nor cost effective for a completely different make and model to do the same. We do not have access to the Mazda and Toyota/Subaru budgets, marketing and manufacturing plans to analyze exactly why they are different but rest assured they will be. The expenses required to crash test and certify two different engines alone could be enough to make them decide it isn't warranted.