Throttle lag and filtering?

[DiscoQuinn]

I appreciate the replies.

ABS fuse was thrown in the bushes the day I got the car. No ABS, no TC.

I should really setup a camera, as I can't live log the OEM ecu sadly. Maybe there is a way to log the ECU so I can look after, but I know live isn't possible with the OEM ECU.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

It is entirely possible that I am out of my mind, but I am convinced that the throttle mapping on my '15 changes when I do the long (double) press on the nanny buttons. I usually do that as the engine is warming up, but on occasion I forget. When I do I find myself being irritated that my shifts seem clumsier and the throttle blips less predictable, Eventually, I'll notice the absence of lights on the panel and fix it at the next light.

I’ve seen others say similar about the long hold. I’ve never noticed much of a difference on blips. I’ve already said it in this thread but switching to E85 was the the only thing that solved the inconsistent blips for me. Before e85 it would randomly ignore my blips regardless of the long hold. I would do a big stab and the revs would literally keep falling as if I never pressed the throttle.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by DiscoQuinn

I appreciate the replies.

ABS fuse was thrown in the bushes the day I got the car. No ABS, no TC.

I should really setup a camera, as I can't live log the OEM ecu sadly. Maybe there is a way to log the ECU so I can look after, but I know live isn't possible with the OEM ECU.

I will pull my ABS fuse today and see if I notice any difference in throttle response.

Live logging is possible with the OEM ECU. What sort of cable do you have? If it’s USB and is compatible with Techstream then you can log. If your cable isn’t compatible you can get one cheap on Amazon that is. Just search for “Techstream” on Amazon.

[Compelica]

Originally Posted by ermax

The answer really is in the TIR (Transient Ignition Retard) tables. These threads have some good info:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50088

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118629

“transient” is when there are big fluctuations in the RPMs, for example blips or shifts. In the early days there was an issue with detonation on shifts at redline which was eating injector seals. The cause was that the original roms had the TIR table zeroed out so it wasn’t pulling timing on shifts. Shortly after the release of the car they filled in the TIR table which fixed the injector seal issue but also impacted blips a little. In 2017 they got WAY more aggressive with the TIR table which fixed some knocking on fast shifts but really killed blips.

It’s a trade off between throttle response or knock when it comes to the TIR table. I run the 2013 TIR table but don’t get the knock because I’m on E85. I think if you have a lot of time to play in RomRaider you could come up with a perfect table that will avoid the knock on high RPM shifts without killing blips.

@ermax how did you manage to copy the 2017 TIR table to a 2013 tune as the table sizes don't match? I'm attempting to try out the 2017 on mine.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Compelica

@ermax how did you manage to copy the 2017 TIR table to a 2013 tune as the table sizes don't match? I'm attempting to try out the 2017 on mine.

I don't recall them not matching. Have to dig up the two roms and compare. Out of curiosity, why do you want to run the 2017 TIR? It pulls a lot of timing on big transients (blips) so it actually hurts throttle response.

Edit: Okay I see the 2017 has one additional column for engine load at .80. I simply slid the whole table over to the left one column.

I created a pastebin for it here:
https://pastebin.com/raw/U5GqRfP3

Just copy that to the clipboard, then go into the TIR table for your 2013 ROM and then hit Ctrl+V. It should overlay the whole table with the 2017 values. You will notice the 2013 ROM hardly pulls any timing at all between 4000 and 5200 where as the 2017 ROM pulls up to -25 in that range. It has a significate negative impact on throttle response.

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by ermax

I’ve seen others say similar about the long hold. I’ve never noticed much of a difference on blips. I’ve already said it in this thread but switching to E85 was the the only thing that solved the inconsistent blips for me. Before e85 it would randomly ignore my blips regardless of the long hold. I would do a big stab and the revs would literally keep falling as if I never pressed the throttle.

Hmmm. Our pedal techniques could be different, but mine will accept blips in normal mode (although a little sluggishly), and seems a bit sharper after the long press.

Nevertheless, I have been contemplating flex fuel for a while now. May pull the trigger soonish. Which kit (if any) do you have? Any pros/cons to the rest?

[Compelica]

Originally Posted by ermax

I don't recall them not matching. Have to dig up the two roms and compare. Out of curiosity, why do you want to run the 2017 TIR? It pulls a lot of timing on big transients (blips) so it actually hurts throttle response.

Edit: Okay I see the 2017 has one additional column for engine load at .80. I simply slid the whole table over to the left one column.

I created a pastebin for it here:
https://pastebin.com/raw/U5GqRfP3

Just copy that to the clipboard, then go into the TIR table for your 2013 ROM and then hit Ctrl+V. It should overlay the whole table with the 2017 values. You will notice the 2013 ROM hardly pulls any timing at all between 4000 and 5200 where as the 2017 ROM pulls up to -25 in that range. It has a significate negative impact on throttle response.

Thanks for that - I initially wanted to find out on how you 'adapted' the larger table to the smaller table size.

I'm on Wayne's tune (which the TIR table is based on the A01G but with the 4000 to 5200 RPM hole plugged in) but I'm still getting audible tip-in knocks hence wanting to try the 2017 TIR table if the throttle response is manageable.

I've attached the comparison below - stock A01G ROM is on right.

[DiscoQuinn]

Originally Posted by ermax

Live logging is possible with the OEM ECU. What sort of cable do you have? If it’s USB and is compatible with Techstream then you can log. If your cable isn’t compatible you can get one cheap on Amazon that is. Just search for “Techstream” on Amazon.

I'm a bit confused by the many variations of the techstream cables, otherwise I would've bought one by now.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Compelica

Thanks for that - I initially wanted to find out on how you 'adapted' the larger table to the smaller table size.

I'm on Wayne's tune (which the TIR table is based on the A01G but with the 4000 to 5200 RPM hole plugged in) but I'm still getting audible tip-in knocks hence wanting to try the 2017 TIR table if the throttle response is manageable.

I've attached the comparison below - stock A01G ROM is on right.

The lagginess on the 2017 table is fairly signification but yeah that tip in knock clicking crap is unnerving. The 2017 fully solved that for me but when switching to E85 I was able to go back to the 2013 table and still not get tip in knock.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by DiscoQuinn

I'm a bit confused by the many variations of the techstream cables, otherwise I would've bought one by now.

This is the one I ordered but this exact one isn’t available anymore.

[cammyT]

@DiscoQuinn i completely feel your pain with these fa20s. The throttle "delay" as I call it is also my #1 frustration with these cars.

Sadly, it can only be remedied with an aftermarket ECU as I understand. Its just impossible to get rid of the 200ms (ish) delay from off to on throttle transitions with the stock ECU. I guess it does a bunch of calculations before it starts to move the throttle plate relative to your pedal position.

That said, there COULD theoretically be another solution, but it'd take some good programming and wiring skills. You could use a microcontroller that directly trsnslates your pedal movement to throttle plate movement while also mimicking the throttle pedal and throttle plate positions that the ECU is expecting. Essentially it would trick your ECU into thinking it's getting an acceptable pedal and throttle position reading. This should prevent any limp home conditions assuming it's coupled with an appropriate remapping of the ROM.



Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[gpvecchi]

Many in Japan use the Max Orido throttle controller.
Differently from the others, it has to be connected to the throttle body instead of the pedal, so it can really make the pedal 1:1 with the throttle body.
But, shouldn't this turn on the engine light, as there is a mismatched between the expected position and the real one?

[ermax]

Originally Posted by cammyT

@DiscoQuinn i completely feel your pain with these fa20s. The throttle "delay" as I call it is also my #1 frustration with these cars.

Sadly, it can only be remedied with an aftermarket ECU as I understand. Its just impossible to get rid of the 200ms (ish) delay from off to on throttle transitions with the stock ECU. I guess it does a bunch of calculations before it starts to move the throttle plate relative to your pedal position.

That said, there COULD theoretically be another solution, but it'd take some good programming and wiring skills. You could use a microcontroller that directly trsnslates your pedal movement to throttle plate movement while also mimicking the throttle pedal and throttle plate positions that the ECU is expecting. Essentially it would trick your ECU into thinking it's getting an acceptable pedal and throttle position reading. This should prevent any limp home conditions assuming it's coupled with an appropriate remapping of the ROM.



Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Someone did something similar on the IS300.

[gpvecchi]

I think that's what the Max Orido box does...