Vacci-Nation [CLOSED DUE TO DISRESPECTFUL, INSULTING, POLITICAL POSTS

[Bonburner]

Originally Posted by Opie

I can't stop laughing over the fear that has been instilled into so many over this virus. I'm still in a high risk group, still traveling around the country, to the stores, on airplanes, eating out at restaurants...have been wearing a mask around others and washing my hands, and, other than on airplanes, maintaining my distance....still caught the virus, was a "different" feel than others viruses/flu, but beat it in short order. Contact traced those who had been around me, none got it, stayed sequestered as per Dr orders, no one in my household got it. Have been offered the vaccine 3 times because of my "high risk" categorization and have decided against getting the vaccine until the trials, that you all are unknowingly participating in, are complete and it gets full FDA approval as I will not risk my rights against any potential liabilities the emergency use vaccines may cause as they will not be covered currently.

I have had multiple acquaintances that have also contracted the virus, some minor, some moderate, some major and even one that was fatal so I do not think this was a hoax, but it was certainly manipulated to cause an unnecessary amount of fear in the populous.

There're two perspectives: the individual risk versus the population risk.
The individual statistically speaking is pretty low. I as an individual am low risk of dying, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. I have a peer that lost her mother and her own life in her upper 20's.

On a population scale, the lives lost due to COVID would have been astronomically unacceptable. And I agree with taking a serious response to COVID, and I wish others' took this seriously as well. Instead of running around spewing ridiculous claims about masks and fake health conditions. It's easy to say we're fine, even with our pretty shoddy response to COVID. Imagine if there was no response leading to literal millions of lives lost, and no, millions is not an exaggerated number. The entire country would be mourning and spewing crap like "if only we reacted better". Captain Hindsight comes out of the woodworks only after the problem. If the problem is prevented, then the success is its own downfall in the peoples' eyes as majority can't piece the cause and effects together.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Opie

I can't stop laughing over the fear that has been instilled into so many over this virus. I'm still in a high risk group, still traveling around the country, to the stores, on airplanes, eating out at restaurants...have been wearing a mask around others and washing my hands, and, other than on airplanes, maintaining my distance....still caught the virus, was a "different" feel than others viruses/flu, but beat it in short order. Contact traced those who had been around me, none got it, stayed sequestered as per Dr orders, no one in my household got it. Have been offered the vaccine 3 times because of my "high risk" categorization and have decided against getting the vaccine until the trials, that you all are unknowingly participating in, are complete and it gets full FDA approval as I will not risk my rights against any potential liabilities the emergency use vaccines may cause as they will not be covered currently.

I have had multiple acquaintances that have also contracted the virus, some minor, some moderate, some major and even one that was fatal so I do not think this was a hoax, but it was certainly manipulated to cause an unnecessary amount of fear in the populous.

How have you assessed that the vaccine is more dangerous than the virus? You survived the virus, but think you are going to die or get cancer from a vaccine or something? You are running a COVID re-exposure experiment on yourself and others, but think the big experiment is the vaccine? Don’t you see the irony? Are you one of those cigarette-smoking, anti-vaxxers who “doesn’t put anything unnatural in their body”?

While I have had concerns, I haven’t had fear. My concern as a healthcare worker was that I would be exposed repeatedly and could develop long term complications, but I was more concerned that I would get it and pass it to others who could die. Healthcare workers take a vow to do no harm. Most specifically, and selfishly, I had the concern that I would pass it to my parents who are at retirement age and who could die. The mortality over 65 is worse than 1 in 150 or something (I haven’t done the math in a while). The other real concern was overwhelming the healthcare system, which we saw all over the world at different times, especially in the US.

You say this was manipulated to cause an unnecessary amount of fear. If anything, the former administration did everything to downplay the severity of the virus, and 550,000 deaths later, we see the consequences. I don’t think we needed to have fear. What we needed to have was concern for our fellow countryman and acknowledgement that this virus was a threat to our systems. When we look around the world at countries that took this virus serious, who’s people took the virus serious, who are experienced with pandemics, they succeeded with fewer deaths, with less time in lockdowns, with more financial success or less losses, etc. I think the biggest problem was the propaganda that this virus could be ignored, and it would just go away on its own with minimal casualties or disruptions to industries. In fact, the opposite was the case; ignoring the problem only made it worse.

[Bonburner]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

How have you assessed that the vaccine is more dangerous than the virus? You survived the virus, but think you are going to die or get cancer from a vaccine or something? You are running a COVID re-exposure experiment on yourself and others, but think the big experiment is the vaccine? Don’t you see the irony? Are you one of those cigarette-smoking, anti-vaxxers who “doesn’t put anything unnatural in their body”?

While I have had concerns, I haven’t had fear. My concern as a healthcare worker was that I would be exposed repeatedly and could develop long term complications, but I was more concerned that I would get it and pass it to others who could die. Healthcare workers take a vow to do no harm. Most specifically, and selfishly, I had the concern that I would pass it to my parents who are at retirement age and who could die. The mortality over 65 is worse than 1 in 150 or something (I haven’t done the math in a while). The other real concern was overwhelming the healthcare system, which we saw all over the world at different times, especially in the US.

You say this was manipulated to cause an unnecessary amount of fear. If anything, the former administration did everything to downplay the severity of the virus, and 550,000 deaths later, we see the consequences. I don’t think we needed to have fear. What we needed to have was concern for our fellow countryman and acknowledgement that this virus was a threat to our systems. When we look around the world at countries that took this virus serious, who’s people took the virus serious, who are experienced with pandemics, they succeeded with fewer deaths, with less time in lockdowns, with more financial success or less losses, etc. I think the biggest problem was the propaganda that this virus could be ignored, and it would just go away on its own with minimal casualties or disruptions to industries. In fact, the opposite was the case; ignoring the problem only made it worse.

I'd have to say that's the most frustrating thing about this COVID situation. The people refusing to practice social distancing and wearing masks trying to re-open things early, etc. Those people are literally making COVID last longer. Until we get vaccination rates in +80%, we'll still have to social distance and wear masks. But we wouldn't have needed to undergo stricter lockdowns.

There're times where I wish I overheard people crying about health conditions preventing masks just so I could shut them down. But at sametime I'm glad I never had the chance. Might've led to professional self-sabotage.

[spike021]

In other news I spotted my first COVID space cadet yesterday. Someone was wearing a full-on helmet thing (nothing like a motorcycle helmet) and walking at the crosswalk of an intersection.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Opie

Both of these assumptions are factually incorrect, the reason healthcare, and education, including college education, are so expensive in this country is specifically because of the government involvement in these entities. Healthcare and education alike are no longer viewed as things to benefit the greater good, they are instead big, big business raking in huge profits because of government involvement.

In the past I worked for a large medicare and medicaid provider, my wife worked for a very large independent healthcare provider. The independent provider used to create their own cost formularies (what they paid providers) for office visits, drugs, procedures, etc. that they covered. Then they negotiated with doctors, hospitals, drug companies, etc. to get the best agreed price. Enter goverment healthcare (medicaid, medicare, etc.) who didn't initially use formularies, they would pay whatever they were charged based on an agreed fair pricing. As providers & drug companies found out, no one in the government was checking if the prices they were paying were fair, so the prices kept increasing, to the point that independent companies were forced to pay higher prices as well or avoid losing providers and access to drugs. Eventually the government caught on and created a task force to publish their own formularies of what they would pay, they worked with independent healthcare insurers to create a standard formulary, that all healthcare would use. So the independents no longer created their own, and began using the government formularies. The government said maintaining the formulary was cost prohibitive asked the providers and healthcare companies to again only charge a fair cost, not to exceed a certain percentage increase annually. And they agreed, so since then, all formularies, government of independent were subject to the same cost increases annually. So the drug companies increase the costs annually, increasing the cost of drugs created years and years ago. With newer drugs and procedures they are able to set any price they claim is "fair". Same reason a single Tylenol is $64 at the hospital instead of a bottle of $2.19 for a bottle of 325. And like magic healthcare is too expensive. The medicare/medicaid company I worked for had an active State Senator on the staff..., had her own office at the company. She helped pass the laws that benefitted the company. Including one that allowed medicare/medicaid providers to sell their member lists to other medicare/medicaid companies. Why? Because each time soemone signed up to a new company, the government paid the company a signing bonus for that person, and different companies could get that signing bonus for the SAME person as long as it had been longer than 1 year since signing with another company. The company I worked for made billions doing this. Meanwhile taxes, and medical care got more expensive.

Education is the same way, you must go or you will not be successful. Indebting a new class of debtors every school year with the lure of success with a wealth iof useless majors for average students while millions of decent paying tradesman jobs go to those scurrying across the border; electricians, carpenter/framers, plumbers, steelworkers, welders, auto technicians, installers, etc. all because we raise our kids to think success is only found with a degree, and not in a trade.

Just like oil, coal & auto companies are huge backers of the right, healthcare, education & technology are huge backers of the left and they are all taking care of each other...not any of us.

Or because of the lack of true government involvement and too much corporate involvement.

Fundamentally, healthcare is an ethical right, so healthcare should be guaranteed, and if the progressive left had their way then healthcare would be paid for through taxation and guaranteed to all, so maybe you are referring more to the corporate, moderate neo-democrats, which are actually center right, and if you are then yes, they are tied to big donors.

Educating people in any way, including trade schools, is just a no brainer. Just like society is improved by having an educated class that knows how to read and write, higher education in trades prepares people for work in technical careers, and we see greater benefits for having a society that has a secondary education. Not only do people make more money, pay more taxes and are more productive, but they are more capable to contribute to society in other ways. We see a correlation with education and participation in the political process like voting or holding a political office. We see a correlation between education and participating in the community. We see a correlation between education and stronger families with more successful and better developed children. We see better family planning. We see an inverse correlation to drug abuse, family abuse, suicide, violence, etc. I could go on. The public investment pays for itself several fold over.

I do find it ironic that every trade job you named is stereotypically male dominated, and interestingly, women are the ones going to college more often. It seems like it use to be 58% men, but now it is 56% women. College educated women actually outnumber college educated men, but regardless, we could teach girls to be a carpenter or plumper just as much as guys. Seems like there are plenty of parents who think college is liberal, brain-washing camp, so they probably encourage their kids to do something else. I’m sure there are a number of parents who worked for a company for years only to be let go and wished they had an education to fall back on in a world where every employee is expendable. Some people can get into trades without experience or education. Some people might need trade schools because employers no longer do much apprenticeships and in house education or investment. Corporations realized a long time ago that it was best to pass the buck to the employee to seek education on their own. It was a tit-for-tat thing because they could provide education only to see the employee leave to work at a competitor, so might as well treat the employee as expendable. Anyways, I digress.

Points are simple: healthcare is an ethical right and educating society is a good investment. I think the government is the beat way to guarantee access to healthcare, and I believe higher education is just as good an investment as k-12.

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

How have you assessed that the vaccine is more dangerous than the virus?

I read it on Facebook. My high school Pottery classmate said it was true.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Don’t you see the irony?

I wear wrinkly clothing. I don't own an irony.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I was more concerned that I would get it and pass it to others who could die.

Lame!

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

550,000 deaths later

Fake news. All those people were going to die eventually.

[Bonburner]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Or because of the lack of true government involvement and too much corporate involvement.

Fundamentally, healthcare is an ethical right, so healthcare should be guaranteed, and if the progressive left had their way then healthcare would be paid for through taxation and guaranteed to all, so maybe you are referring more to the corporate, moderate neo-democrats, which are actually center right, and if you are then yes, they are tied to big donors.

Educating people in any way, including trade schools, is just a no brainer. Just like society is improved by having an educated class that knows how to read and write, higher education in trades prepares people for work in technical careers, and we see greater benefits for having a society that has a secondary education. Not only do people make more money, pay more taxes and are more productive, but they are more capable to contribute to society in other ways. We see a correlation with education and participation in the political process like voting or holding a political office. We see a correlation between education and participating in the community. We see a correlation between education and stronger families with more successful and better developed children. We see better family planning. We see an inverse correlation to drug abuse, family abuse, suicide, violence, etc. I could go on. The public investment pays for itself several fold over.

I do find it ironic that every trade job you named is stereotypically male dominated, and interestingly, women are the ones going to college more often. It seems like it use to be 58% men, but now it is 56% women. College educated women actually outnumber college educated men, but regardless, we could teach girls to be a carpenter or plumper just as much as guys. Seems like there are plenty of parents who think college is liberal, brain-washing camp, so they probably encourage their kids to do something else. I’m sure there are a number of parents who worked for a company for years only to be let go and wished they had an education to fall back on in a world where every employee is expendable. Some people can get into trades without experience or education. Some people might need trade schools because employers no longer do much apprenticeships and in house education or investment. Corporations realized a long time ago that it was best to pass the buck to the employee to seek education on their own. It was a tit-for-tat thing because they could provide education only to see the employee leave to work at a competitor, so might as well treat the employee as expendable. Anyways, I digress.

Points are simple: healthcare is an ethical right and educating society is a good investment. I think the government is the beat way to guarantee access to healthcare, and I believe higher education is just as good an investment as k-12.

Saddest part is that other countries have proven that gov't funded healthcare is successful and provides better quality of life. And yet people harp random excuses about how they're different or whatever. But that's exactly the process of deciding if we should do something: test it in a small scale, if it works, scale it up. We know it works in smaller countries and big countries. So scale it up to the US.

True patriots that want to keep the US in the global lead understand that education is critical. If US falls behind in education (which it already has), other countries become the forefront of research (which we are already seeing, ie. Intel US fabs are third rate to Taiwanese TSMC and S. Korean Samsung). That's what leads to technological advantage, which leads to military and economic advantage. All these "patriots" shouting about retaining old tech and not investing into alternative sources of energy and advancing overall tech in the US are literally sabotaging the future of the US.

Side note: I'm still amused how internet isn't a public utility. It's used more as a utility than phones are these days. I've contacted patients over the internet more and more. I use my internet to pay bills and buy goods. All of which was, at one time, what phones provided. I don't know why this came up in my head.

[spike021]

Originally Posted by Bonburner

Side note: I'm still amused how internet isn't a public utility. It's used more as a utility than phones are these days. I've contacted patients over the internet more and more. I use my internet to pay bills and buy goods. All of which was, at one time, what phones provided. I don't know why this came up in my head.

Plus those of us who have been working from home all year basically live on the internet, when it comes to our daily jobs at this point.

And at this rate with how the culture is finally changing, we'll continue mostly working from home even "post"-pandemic.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I don’t think we needed to have fear. What we needed to have was concern for our fellow countryman

My impression is that in your part of the world for many people think individuals > society.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Bonburner

True patriots

PEDANT ATTACK!!!!
All patriots are true by definition.
It reads a little bit like No True Scotsman fallacy.

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by Bonburner

Saddest part is that other countries have proven that gov't funded healthcare is successful and provides better quality of life. And yet people harp random excuses about how they're different or whatever. But that's exactly the process of deciding if we should do something: test it in a small scale, if it works, scale it up. We know it works in smaller countries and big countries. So scale it up to the US.

True patriots that want to keep the US in the global lead understand that education is critical. If US falls behind in education (which it already has), other countries become the forefront of research (which we are already seeing, ie. Intel US fabs are third rate to Taiwanese TSMC and S. Korean Samsung). That's what leads to technological advantage, which leads to military and economic advantage. All these "patriots" shouting about retaining old tech and not investing into alternative sources of energy and advancing overall tech in the US are literally sabotaging the future of the US.

Side note: I'm still amused how internet isn't a public utility. It's used more as a utility than phones are these days. I've contacted patients over the internet more and more. I use my internet to pay bills and buy goods. All of which was, at one time, what phones provided. I don't know why this came up in my head.

1. Yeah, but what about Venezuela? Huh, huh? Besides, if a worker has health insurance, he may actually go see the doctor instead of coming to work sick. Then I'll lose money.
2. On a less idiotic and sarcastic note, I don't think Intel's downfall can be pinned on US education. Fabs ain't easy, and it doesn't take many missteps to fall behind. Plus Intel is a bit of an international company. Lots of smart, well-educated people. This could all flip in 5 years.
3. Agreed. 'Merica stoopid.
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69. Gads! You choose to live in Orange County? I got out of there as fast I could.

[Bonburner]

Originally Posted by EAGLE5

1. Yeah, but what about Venezuela? Huh, huh? Besides, if a worker has health insurance, he may actually go see the doctor instead of coming to work sick. Then I'll lose money.
2. On a less idiotic and sarcastic note, I don't think Intel's downfall can be pinned on US education. Fabs ain't easy, and it doesn't take many missteps to fall behind. Plus Intel is a bit of an international company. Lots of smart, well-educated people. This could all flip in 5 years.
3. Agreed. 'Merica stoopid.
...
...
...
69. Gads! You choose to live in Orange County? I got out of there as fast I could.

Agreed that Intel's example was Overally reaching, and technically incorrect example, but there is some truth to the statement.
But with that being said, stagnation and less investment into research in the US has permitted other nations to catch up with the US and we are falling behind. I think S. Korea is a great example. 1980's the nation was literally too poor to feed their people. Now, they're making the best tech in multiple industries and universal healthcare. Not saying that they're flawless, but they are one of the leaders of tech within 20 years of starting to dabble in tech.

I really wish US would invest into the rail system like all the other first world countries have. No reason not to have both cars and +200 MPH rail systems.

You know, I oddly like OC. I've been able to find micro-communities of every walks of life (or so it seems with my shallow international experience). I'm able to enjoy the young night lifestyle, old retired lifestyle, multiple ethnic foods, etc.

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

PEDANT ATTACK!!!!
All patriots are true by definition.
It reads a little bit like No True Scotsman fallacy.

True, I got caught up in my writing ~
I consider thinking of the future of America to be patriotic, not trying to protect your own wallets and retain the ways of gas, oil, and coal.

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by Opie

Both of these assumptions are factually incorrect, the reason healthcare, and education, including college education, are so expensive in this country is specifically because of the government involvement in these entities. Healthcare and education alike are no longer viewed as things to benefit the greater good, they are instead big, big business raking in huge profits because of government involvement.

- snip -

Education is the same way, you must go or you will not be successful. Indebting a new class of debtors every school year with the lure of success with a wealth iof useless majors for average students while millions of decent paying tradesman jobs go to those scurrying across the border; electricians, carpenter/framers, plumbers, steelworkers, welders, auto technicians, installers, etc. all because we raise our kids to think success is only found with a degree, and not in a trade.

Just like oil, coal & auto companies are huge backers of the right, healthcare, education & technology are huge backers of the left and they are all taking care of each other...not any of us.

Others are much better equipped than I to address the medical issues raised, but with respect to the higher education portion of your argument, you have the causal arrow reversed. Higher ed is more expensive NOT because of government involvement but because of the withdrawal of government financial support for education in general, but higher ed in particular. This led to a concomitant infiltration of the private lending industry into the vacuum created by governments' abdication. All of us have suffered as a result.

In the years after WWII state governments took on the responsibility of providing higher education as a nominally public good. In part this was related to the need to reintegrate returning GIs into the economy but it was, in a sense, also a realization of the contribution education would play in the nation's future. The result was the greatest economic boom in the history of the country.

I was a late beneficiary of this. When I went to college it was affordable for a large portion of the American middle class. (the poor are another story altogether.) The taxpayers of the Texas subsidized my education to the tune of roughly 80% of its cost. I and my family were on the hook for less than 20% of the cost of my education.

In 1980 this began to change. Government came to be portrayed as a malignant force and taxpayer revolts became more common. States began to compete for the title of "lowest tax state." The resulting loss of tax revenue led to a slashing of public support for public colleges. State financial support for higher ed dropped from 80% to 20% of the cost - in some cases less. By 1990 the percentages had flipped. The state was paying 20% or less of the cost with families were paying 70 to 80%. The lost funding was replaced by substantial increases in tuition. Higher education at state "supported" colleges and universities became a private good. Citizens could get it, but only if they could pay for it. Into the void marched a legion of private - in many cases predatory - lenders. These lenders have successfully lobbied state legislature for protections from bankruptcy laws and other consumer protection provisions of state law. "Stete" colleges and universities were made the scapegoats.

What you are complaining about is not the result of government, but the abdication government's responsibility and the ascension of a politics of selfishness.

I share some of your frustration with the "success requires college" movement. In part that is a response by the affected institutions who now find that they need substantial enrollment growth to survive. The result is a large number of entering students are either uninterested in education and are going because they think they have to and/or are not ready or prepared for the work a college degree (should) require(s). That is another topic.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

Citizens could get it, but only if they could pay for it.

Maybe it varies by State, but what you describe is not the situation with a public (state) university in Georgia.

Below is the estimated cost for going to the University of Georgia on CollegeSimply.Com.

If you are an in-state Student from Georgia and have the appropriate GPA from high school, (3.0 or 3.3) it covers 80% to 90% of tuition as long as you maintain that GPA. I would argue that if your high school GPA is less than that, College is not a good choice for you. Keeping the GPA up in college is challenging but a 3.0 average isn't exactly knocking it out of the park these days.

That leaves the other charges. Most can be controlled and you can come well under the number shown, if you are willing to make the required sacrifices (living at home, rent books instead of buy, etc). Work part time during the school year, and full time+ in the summer and you can pay for the education out of pocket, even without your parents help. Go to Community College the first two years and cut the cost even lower.

Now, mind you, you won't be spending Spring Break in Tahiti, or even Ft. Lauderdale, and you won't be driving a late model car, but you won't be in debt either when you get out because you spent "student loans" on lifestyle.