Will you wait for the second model year to purchase your 86?

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by JesseG

If you are a car manufacturer with authorized dealers (that charge a lot for their service), you expect it to be done as if the manufacturer were doing the work themselves. Isn’t that the entire point of an authorized dealer?

That's exactly why failure to follow manufacturer instructions that caused engine failure is up to the dealer, not the manufacturer.

Oil starvation due to incorrectly cleaned and applied sealant during the valve spring recall is the same as a dealer forgetting to put fresh oil during an oil change after draining the old oil. Would they ask Toyota/Subaru to cover the cost of the engine? Or would they own up to their mistake and cover the cost of the engine?

Toyota and Subaru made a mistake in the design of the valve springs, they owned up and payed dealerships to replace the springs (recall/warranty work gets billed to the manufacturer), no need to saddle them with the dealerships' mistakes as well.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The failure was NOT the fault of the parts manufacturer providing false results nor using bad materials!


https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/201...8V772-0340.pdf

The document that you linked is really interesting, particularly this part:

As a result, it was found that due to the improper design of the valve train, stress generated exceeded the design condition. The excessive stress combined with the dispersion of impurity within the composition of the spring material under normal course of production may cause the valve spring concern to fracture from fatigue.

Turns out this was Subaru/Toyota’s mistake all along. This reinforces even more that they should take care of all the owners with failed engines. If it wasn’t for their direct screw up, these owners’ engines would never have needed to be repaired. The risk that a tech would botch the repair job should be borne primarily by the dealership, but secondarily by Subaru/Toyota, and in no event by the owner. Once the dealership fails to honor the mistake, the onus falls on Toyota/Subaru as the cause of the repair to either set their dealership straight and/or goodwill the repair. Subaru/Toyota can’t absolve themselves of their responsibility in this mess.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I have worked for three of the top 20 parts manufacturers for 30 years now. It is complicated. The problem is that people don't get that the manufacturers ASSMBLE the cars. Other people make the parts and the dealers do the rest.
The number of cars does not matter you are still trying to place the responsibility on the wrong group.

Fair enough, and like I said you need to have realistic expectations of what type of coverage you will get. Some part failures are due to owner negligence or stupidity, which is why we have millions of warning stickers on everything. Lol
I do have to say though the car manufacturer puts their name on the final product. It’s just part of being in that business. And it’s not always fair to the manufacturer, like the stupid unintended acceleration mess.


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[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by JesseG

Not with some of the ideas being thrown around about the need for personal transportation. But that is a whole different debate.

There are 279 million vehicles registered in the US. In 2018, there were about 17M new vehicles sold. Anyway you look at it, changing the entire fleet over is going to take time, electric, self-driving, whatever.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Turns out this was Subaru/Toyota’s mistake all along. This reinforces even more that they should take care of all the owners with failed engines. .

And the recall corrected their mistake.

What you are saying is similar to when I was driving home from work and someone pulled out in front of me and wrecked my car. Obviously, its my fault because I left at the time I did. Had I left before or after by a minute, the accident wouldn't have happened.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

To clarify THIS point it needs to be understood that the extended warranty was for the valve springs repair only..

Yea, I should have been clearer, when I said "it" I meant the repair.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Yea, I should have been clearer, when I said "it" I meant the repair.

I knew you knew what you knew but wasn't sure others would know what you knew and I knew that somebody would know they knew it right when the really knew they knew it wrong. You know?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

The document that you linked is really interesting, particularly this part:



Turns out this was Subaru/Toyota’s mistake all along. This reinforces even more that they should take care of all the owners with failed engines. If it wasn’t for their direct screw up, these owners’ engines would never have needed to be repaired. The risk that a tech would botch the repair job should be borne primarily by the dealership, but secondarily by Subaru/Toyota, and in no event by the owner. Once the dealership fails to honor the mistake, the onus falls on Toyota/Subaru as the cause of the repair to either set their dealership straight and/or goodwill the repair. Subaru/Toyota can’t absolve themselves of their responsibility in this mess.

Nope. It changes nothing. If the dealership crashed you car while on a test drive after doing a repair should Toyota replace it? They wouldn't have had to do a test drive if it wasn't for the repair.
The blame is squarely in one corner here and there is no way to rationalize around that.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

That's exactly why failure to follow manufacturer instructions that caused engine failure is up to the dealer, not the manufacturer.

Oil starvation due to incorrectly cleaned and applied sealant during the valve spring recall is the same as a dealer forgetting to put fresh oil during an oil change after draining the old oil. Would they ask Toyota/Subaru to cover the cost of the engine? Or would they own up to their mistake and cover the cost of the engine?

Toyota and Subaru made a mistake in the design of the valve springs, they owned up and payed dealerships to replace the springs (recall/warranty work gets billed to the manufacturer), no need to saddle them with the dealerships' mistakes as well.

Responsibility should have been shared to make up for the defective parts, or design, and the botched repairs. I can see why Toyota or Subaru would deny coverage if the dealership screwed up a repair. I’m not exactly sure how that dynamic works between the car company and their dealerships. There has to be some give and take to it. Unfortunately there are lots of stories of dealerships refusing to cover the costs of repair. Even for cars under warranty. I’ve read that Hyundai and Kia are famous for denying claims on their 10 year warranties. Now is that the car company or the dealerships? Ultimate authority rests with the car maker I thought.


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[p1l0t]

Warranties are almost as bad as insurance. (Most manufacturers warranties aren't as bad as extended warranties but still) Everyone wants piece-of-mind but the reality is any serious claim is always a battle. And so then why pay for it at all?

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[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

And the recall corrected their mistake.

What you are saying is similar to when I was driving home from work and someone pulled out in front of me and wrecked my car. Obviously, its my fault because I left at the time I did. Had I left before or after by a minute, the accident wouldn't have happened.

There’s no mistake on your part in choosing to leave when you did. There is a mistake that Toyota/Subaru made in designing the valve train the way they did, which they‘ve admitted to.

I will add one thing. If in some theoretical world Subaru/Toyota has simply paid owners a fair price to replace their valve springs, I’d be less inclined to blame them for the failed repairs since owners could choose whether or not to do the repair, choose the shop they wanted to make the repair, and would have leverage over the shop as a paying customer. But Subaru/Toyota instead used a recall (mandatory in CA) and forced owners to go through their dealerships for the repairs (obviously to their own financial benefit). At that point, they took on more responsibility that the repairs be done properly.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Nope. It changes nothing. If the dealership crashed you car while on a test drive after doing a repair should Toyota replace it? They wouldn't have had to do a test drive if it wasn't for the repair.
The blame is squarely in one corner here and there is no way to rationalize around that.

The dealership crashing the car has nothing to do with Toyota. The dealership botching the repair work on the engine that was incorrectly designed by Toyota/Subaru hits a lot closer. Also see above about how Toyota/Subaru chose to implement the repair.

[Dadhawk]

I think a lot of the confusion around this is from the fact the "retail stores" have the manufacturer's name on them, and go out of their way to make you think it's one in the same.

Now, let's say you bought your car through Walmart. They also do repairs, so this comes up and you take your Toyota/Subaru to Walmart to have the work done, you pay to have it done and Toyota/Subaru then reimburses you for the work. A week later you find out Walmart hosed up the repair. I believe it is reasonable to expect you would think Walmart should repair it, not Toyota/Subaru. because you know Subaru/Toyota is going to say, "hey Walmart hosed it up, talk to them".

Same difference.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I think a lot of the confusion around this is from the fact the "retail stores" have the manufacturer's name on them, and go out of their way to make you think it's one in the same.

Now, let's say you bought your car through Walmart. They also do repairs, so this comes up and you take your Toyota/Subaru to Walmart to have the work done, you pay to have it done and Toyota/Subaru then reimburses you for the work. A week later you find out Walmart hosed up the repair. I believe it is reasonable to expect you would think Walmart should repair it, not Toyota/Subaru. because you know Subaru/Toyota is going to say, "hey Walmart hosed it up, talk to them".

Same difference.

In this case it’s less like Subaru and Walmart, and more like Subaru and an independent garage that Subaru chose, allowed to operate under their Subaru branding, negotiated/contracted with, and paid personally to make the repairs.

When you think about it, the real relationship is between Subaru and the dealership. The owner neither chose to use a Subaru dealership nor paid them for the repairs. It’s pretty easy to see why a dealership wouldn’t give a rats ass about the owner and his blown engine, unless Subaru tells them to.