Will you wait for the second model year to purchase your 86?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I remember that when the first dealer issues appeared, there was an additional instruction by factory on how and where to apply the sealant. However, I might be wrong. I didn't pay too much attention, because my car was not in the list of cars to be fixed.

The updated instructions most read:


FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS OR YOU WILL WRECK THE ENGINE AND IT WILL BE YOUR FAULT.
The actual working instructions were hardly changed at all. Even the first set was clear enough if the techs actually paid attention. Many many people on here had rebuilt there own engines with no instructions at all and they managed to avoid blocking the oil passages.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

The repair has a 12 month warranty on it. I see no reason why they would extend the warranty beyond the repair failure. That is, by the way, why the ones that failed were covered and repaired (for the most part).

Haha it’s that last part in parenthesis that’s the kicker.

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I remember that when the first dealer issues appeared, there was an additional instruction by factory on how and where to apply the sealant. However, I might be wrong. I didn't pay too much attention, because my car was not in the list of cars to be fixed.

Yeah clearly the sealant issue was happening often enough that corporate felt the need to release additional guidance.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I remember that when the first dealer issues appeared, there was an additional instruction by factory on how and where to apply the sealant. However, I might be wrong. I didn't pay too much attention, because my car was not in the list of cars to be fixed.

It was more "OK morons, we told you how to do this, but some of you aren't getting it right so let us be real clear" type of instructions. The original instructions were correct, the newer ones were more "instructions for dummies".

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

The repair has a 12 month warranty on it. I see no reason why they would extend the warranty beyond the repair failure. That is, by the way, why the ones that failed were covered and repaired (for the most part).

Oh ok I wasn’t sure if there was an extended warranty. I agree I think a year is decent protection. If something was done incorrectly in the repair it would probably show up within that time.


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[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Changing standards typically effect new cars, not older cars, so really it will be a gradual change over time, unless there is some huge buy-back which I don't see happening in the current environment. Heck you can still register and daily drive a Model T if you want.

I'm having internal debate about my next car being electric. If so, it won't be for 3 to 5 years. By then, with Ford and GM jumping in with both feet, the infrastructure will be better. I don't really care what juice powers my HP, as long as I can get in it and drive the way I want to drive. The only thing stopping electric right now is charge times, but for daily driving it would be fine.

Not with some of the ideas being thrown around about the need for personal transportation. But that is a whole different debate.
I think electric cars are great, and I would absolutely consider one for commuting. But we have to be realistic about everyone switching to electric vehicles. There is a lot to consider. Getting the resources to build the cars especially the batteries, and a supporting electric grid.


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[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JesseG

Oh ok I wasn’t sure if there was an extended warranty. I agree I think a year is decent protection. If something was done incorrectly in the repair it would probably show up within that time.


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To clarify THIS point it needs to be understood that the extended warranty was for the valve springs repair only. It did/does not cover the whole engine. Those places that screwed up the sealant and acknowledged it were not getting warranty reimbursement from Toyota for the replacement engines. Oil starvation is not related to valve springs and the thought that it happened from the work being done does not mean a thing.
If a replaced spring broke then it would be warranty work. NOTHING else would be even if it was a result of the work being done.

[Tcoat]

Here are the updated instructions. Note that the updates all include cautions and "tips" to the techs with no changes to the actual tech instructions at all.
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/201...8V772-0400.pdf


When I was pulling it up I came across a new document that wasn't there before.
It makes some interesting points that throw much of the speculation as to the cause right out the window.
The failure was NOT the fault of the parts manufacturer providing false results nor using bad materials!


https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/201...8V772-0340.pdf

[Sasquachulator]

What exactly would have caused the techs to screw up?
Is it because they "knew how to rebuild an engine" so they didnt think they needed to reference the instructions? or did they "do it this way because its always worked for me" and it just happens to not work on the boxer 4?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

What exactly would have caused the techs to screw up?
Is it because they "knew how to rebuild an engine" so they didnt think they needed to reference the instructions? or did they "do it this way because its always worked for me" and it just happens to not work on the boxer 4?

They figured they could just scrape the old sealant out and if some fell in the engine then "oh well it will be fine" or they could just slap some new stuff wherever was handy because "all those holes can be needed anyway".


Who knows really? Why does anybody take shortcuts and screw things up? Maybe their dog was sick that day, their wife was screwing around with the mailman, they were really hungover, oh god the list could go on forever.


Keep in mind that the error could be just a couple of pieces of old sealant falling in the wrong place or a simple zig when they should have zagged putting on the new stuff. Probably took a fraction of a seconds inattention to ruin an engine.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You are mixing up several different issues. The cam timing had nothing to do with the spring nor the oil starvation failures.
I will say again, this is a simple valve spring replacement not voodoo. Even a first year trainee should be able to do it by following the instructions. There are noobs to cars on here that do far more complicated work in their driveway without a fully equipped shop. The only issue with the recall work was carless techs that did or could not follow basic instructions.




There were 450,000 cars involved in this recall. The others did not have issues because they did not use the sealant that was improperly installed by the dealer techs and caused the engines to bow up. It is as simple as that.
Buying out a car and giving a discount on a new one isn't the same as giving them a new one outright? Yes when you look at Toyota's total profits it certainly would appear they could absorb that. But it is because they do not do such things that the profit exists in the first place. It would not be long before they were in serious financial trouble if they just started handing out new cars ever time a dealer tech screwed one up. As it is the recall cost Subaru $450 MILLION in revenue. That can indeed break a company fast.


Toyota nor Subaru as a company were responsible for the shoddy repairs that damaged cars. The dealerships were. The companies do not own nor manage the dealerships they sell their product to them and pay for warranty repairs. If the dealership screws up those repairs it is on them to make it right NOT the maker of the car. If you went to the store and bought milk out of a broken cooler and found it was bad would you go looking to the farmer that milked the cows for reimbursement?

Ok so the cam timing errors were a separate issue. I didn’t even know about the oil starvation issue. Needless to say there were some bugs to be worked out. More than what we would expect from Toyota or Subaru.
I respect your views on all of that because you were an early adopter of the platform.

We will have to agree to disagree about what the manufacturer should be responsible for. Failures due to faulty parts have to be covered by someone. And you need to have realistic expectations about how much will be covered. Most car makers offer 3 years of full warranty coverage, and usually longer on some of the drivetrain components. So if your engine fails at 15 years and 200,000 miles of course you can’t expect to have that covered.
The thing about the valve spring recall is engine failures happened because engines needed to be opened, period. We can argue about how difficult a job it is. I’ve never done it and I’m not an auto tech so I can’t say. If you are a car manufacturer with authorized dealers (that charge a lot for their service), you expect it to be done as if the manufacturer were doing the work themselves. Isn’t that the entire point of an authorized dealer?
Anyway I don’t think we will agree on that, and that’s fine. Lol It’s a little different than buying milk from a grocery store.


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[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JesseG

Ok so the cam timing errors were a separate issue. I didn’t even know about the oil starvation issue. Needless to say there were some bugs to be worked out. More than what we would expect from Toyota or Subaru.
I respect your views on all of that because you were an early adopter of the platform.

We will have to agree to disagree about what the manufacturer should be responsible for. Failures due to faulty parts have to be covered by someone. And you need to have realistic expectations about how much will be covered. Most car makers offer 3 years of full warranty coverage, and usually longer on some of the drivetrain components. So if your engine fails at 15 years and 200,000 miles of course you can’t expect to have that covered.
The thing about the valve spring recall is engine failures happened because engines needed to be opened, period. We can argue about how difficult a job it is. I’ve never done it and I’m not an auto tech so I can’t say. If you are a car manufacturer with authorized dealers (that charge a lot for their service), you expect it to be done as if the manufacturer were doing the work themselves. Isn’t that the entire point of an authorized dealer?
Anyway I don’t think we will agree on that, and that’s fine. Lol It’s a little different than buying milk from a grocery store.


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You aren't getting it. The recall failures had nothing to do with faulty parts or anything the manufacturers did. They were all spun bearing due to improper cleaning or resealing of the engines after the repair was done. There were zero failures reported from the actual spring repair. If the engine was opened and closed properly there would have been no problems. We are back to the dealership being the culprit here.


The dealers are authorized yes but they are independent of the manufacturers. What you "expect" is meaningless it is a business.


My view are all driven by facts and data not speculation or expectations. In this case the companies were not the bad guys. The dealerships that refused to admit their error and make things right are.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

To clarify THIS point it needs to be understood that the extended warranty was for the valve springs repair only. It did/does not cover the whole engine. Those places that screwed up the sealant and acknowledged it were not getting warranty reimbursement from Toyota for the replacement engines. Oil starvation is not related to valve springs and the thought that it happened from the work being done does not mean a thing.
If a replaced spring broke then it would be warranty work. NOTHING else would be even if it was a result of the work being done.

That just seems like a car company not backing up their product. Again, they shouldn’t have to buy new cars for people or throw money at them. Just do what is right for the customer. Sure maybe the failures were from total incompetence of the dealership, but they represent your company. It’s a complicated industry, probably only surpassed by healthcare.
I support Toyota and their products, I’ve bought quite a few of their cars, trucks, and SUV’s. So I obviously believe in what they do. It just feels like a lot of FR-S owners were left out to dry. I don’t even know how many failures there were, so it might be a really small number. But that’s all the more reason for Toyota to step up and back up their product.


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[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You aren't getting it. The recall failures had nothing to do with faulty parts or anything the manufacturers did. They were all spun bearing due to improper cleaning or resealing of the engines after the repair was done. There were zero failures reported from the actual spring repair. If the engine was opened and closed properly there would have been no problems. We are back to the dealership being the culprit here.


The dealers are authorized yes but they are independent of the manufacturers. What you "expect" is meaningless it is a business.

But why did the engines need to be opened in the first place? I think I get it just fine.
I’m just glad I didn’t have to deal with that BS, and I’m sorry for the people who did. That might have soured me on the entire brand. And you vote with your wallet right?


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[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JesseG

That just seems like a car company not backing up their product. Again, they shouldn’t have to buy new cars for people or throw money at them. Just do what is right for the customer. Sure maybe the failures were from total incompetence of the dealership, but they represent your company. It’s a complicated industry, probably only surpassed by healthcare.
I support Toyota and their products, I’ve bought quite a few of their cars, trucks, and SUV’s. So I obviously believe in what they do. It just feels like a lot of FR-S owners were left out to dry. I don’t even know how many failures there were, so it might be a really small number. But that’s all the more reason for Toyota to step up and back up their product.


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I have worked for three of the top 20 parts manufacturers for 30 years now. It is complicated. The problem is that people don't get that the manufacturers ASSMBLE the cars. Other people make the parts and the dealers do the rest.
The number of cars does not matter you are still trying to place the responsibility on the wrong group.