Will you wait for the second model year to purchase your 86?

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

Totally agree. A car is a complex product with around 30,000 parts. Many of those are moving parts and have to work in concert with others. There are so many things that can go wrong, and it's impossible to predict and test out all the potential problems in small-scale quality control. The hard fact is that first-year buyers of almost any model are the large-scale beta testing subjects for companies.

Every first model year car I've ever bought has had problems, and I've regretted not waiting a year. My 2015 Mustang GT is the latest hemorrhoid-inducing lesson that I apparently haven't learned despite years and years of repetition.

Japanese companies are more careful than US, but even those can have problems, though they're usually minor. Every time I buy a first model year car and regret it I tell myself I'll never do it again. But I do.

In the infinitesimally tiny chance that the GR86 comes with a turbo motor, I tell myself I'd wait a year for any bugs to be worked out before running down to the Subaru dealer for one. But then, at my 60-something age, remaining time for enjoying a car, especially one with a stick, is limited. I just might (once again) put up with first-year irritations.

That is so true, the complexity of a modern automobile is mind blowing. I can’t imagine trying to design all of the parts to work together and hold up over time. It makes total sense why so many companies are using global platforms now. It’s probably much easier to quality control the entire car. But there are still thousands and thousands of other parts that can fail.
I’ve been lucky with first model year cars I’ve owned, but it’s a small sample. My bugeye WRX ( I guess that might not count because it existed in Japan and elsewhere before the US), my Corolla Hatchback (which I didn’t have long), and my MK5 VW GTI (little issues were rampant with this car, but I dodged the bullets, mine was flawless) Made in Germany baby!

I love that outlook, life is short, do what makes you happy.


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[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

Every first model year car I've ever bought has had problems, and I've regretted not waiting a year. My 2015 Mustang GT is the latest hemorrhoid-inducing lesson that I apparently haven't learned despite years and years of repetition..

Avoiding year one is good advice, that I seem to have a habit of ignoring...

But, I've also had good fortune with it.

1985 MR2. Bought it first week they were on sale. Was never in the shop for a non-maintenance repair until the AC went out at over 170,000 miles. I drove it another 20,000 miles before trading it in on a "family car".

2005 Ford Mustang Convertible. Bought at the end of the model year. MomHawk still drives it daily and won't "trade up", I've tried.. Has never been in the shop except for a top replacement about 5 years ago.

2013 Scion FRS, VIN in the 300s. Over 170,000 miles, including right around 50,000 since the spring recall.

Now, they'll probably all break down tomorrow.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Thanks! I do think people need to step up and take responsibility for their actions. If you go to the track and stuff breaks as a result, that's on you.

But it goes both ways. If you're a huge corporation like Toyota or Subaru and you know that owners' engines have oil starved due to poor sealant application from your recall campaign (which you knew would be mandated in one state that's one of your largest markets), you should step up and fully cover the affected owners.

1. It was Subaru's supplier issues that caused the valve springs to fail. They chose and vetted that supplier. Subaru likely received a huge monetary settlement or judgment against that supplier as well, which is being used to cover this recall campaign.

2. As large global corporations, Subaru/Toyota are in a better position to replace an engine (even with a used one) than any individual owner.

3. From a marketing perspective, the 86/BRZ was supposed to be Toyota/Subaru's passion project. The first adopters are the ones who took the risk to buy the car early on (and it was a commercial success that first year). Would be bad form IMO to leave those same owners out to dry.

4. This car may be majority Subaru built, but Toyota has a reputation for quality/longevity and put their name on the car. They should take (or have taken) the necessary steps to make sure the car met their quality standards.

For those reasons I think in any case where an engine fails within a year or two (or 10-20k miles) after getting the recall done, Toyota/Subaru should at the very least give the owner the benefit of the doubt and either partially cover the repair or offer a used engine replacement. I've already seen a few instances on this forum where the dealership and Toyota corporate have told the owner to pound sand which leaves a bad taste in my mouth about buying another Toyota product, to say the least.



I agree with the above, but will add that Toyota/Subaru shouldn't be leaving any individual owners out to dry. You never know if that's going to be you next.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. The FR-S/86 and BRZ were a project created out of a passion to make a balanced and fun car to drive. Something that doesn’t really exist any more, aside from the Miata. So it would have left a very bad taste in my mouth if I supported that project and had my engine fail. I wouldn’t be as upset if it was a faulty part that would have been difficult to QC properly. But failure because the tech performing the work didn’t know, or care, how to do it properly?! That is unacceptable. And I totally agree that Toyota, and Subaru to some extent, could have used their deep pockets to make those customers feel like they mattered. Unfortunately large corporations lose sight of the little people that buy their products. You’re just a small pebble in the river of customers.
That being said, I value very much the Japanese philosophy of making quality products. I will continue to support companies that make an attempt to create quality products. All of my Toyota’s have been excellent vehicles, nearly perfect. And Subaru is like my automotive soulmate, my WRX will always be my favorite car.


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[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Back to the whole "the dealerships are not Toyota nor Subaru" thing. The dealerships screwed it up the dealerships should fix it.
yes the goodwill shown by corporate coverage would be nice but at the same time it is in no way their responsibility. They have to draw the line someplace.

I agree, Toyota and Subaru, or any auto maker, can’t be expected to pay for every dealer screw up. If a dealer drives your car into an embankment, the dealership needs to make that right. But the J02 recall clearly was above the heads of many dealerships and techs. There was confusion from home base in Japan what even needed to be done. It was a fairly complex fix. It’s easier to look at it now and say “oh yeah X part and X part need to be replaced, no big deal!” The right thing for Toyota/Subaru to do would have been to get those customers out of those cars completely, or cover all the costs. But corporations rarely do the right thing. Unless you are paying a premium. Would Lexus even dream of doing that to its customers? And it’s practically the same company.


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[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Avoiding year one is good advice, that I seem to have a habit of ignoring...

But, I've also had good fortune with it.

1985 MR2. Bought it first week they were on sale. Was never in the shop for a non-maintenance repair until the AC went out at over 170,000 miles. I drove it another 20,000 miles before trading it in on a "family car".

1995 Ford Mustang Convertible. Bought at the end of the model year. MomHawk still drives it daily and won't "trade up", I've tried.. Has never been in the shop except for a top replacement about 5 years ago.

2013 Scion FRS, VIN in the 300s. Over 170,000 miles, including right around 50,000 since the spring recall.

Now, they'll probably all break down tomorrow.

Sweet baby Jesus your family rocks! I think I want to take back some bad things I’ve said about the Mustang!! How cool!
It’s interesting to see how long a car CAN last if you keep it and maintain it properly.


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[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JesseG

I agree, Toyota and Subaru, or any auto maker, can’t be expected to pay for every dealer screw up. If a dealer drives your car into an embankment, the dealership needs to make that right. But the J02 recall clearly was above the heads of many dealerships and techs. There was confusion from home base in Japan what even needed to be done. It was a fairly complex fix. It’s easier to look at it now and say “oh yeah X part and X part need to be replaced, no big deal!” The right thing for Toyota/Subaru to do would have been to get those customers out of those cars completely, or cover all the costs. But corporations rarely do the right thing. Unless you are paying a premium. Would Lexus even dream of doing that to its customers? And it’s practically the same company.


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There was no confusion over what needed to be done. They released very specific instructions on how to remove and reinstall the springs and seal the engine back up. Any half decent backyard mechanic could do it if they just paid attention. It is a simple valve spring replacement not some unknown sorcery and the screw ups had nothing to do with the actual task.

Now they should have given new cars to those that the DEALERS screwed up? How in the world is that the ""right thing"? That is the road to bankruptcy since no person in their right mind would buy their stocks.

Lexus would likely do the exact same thing under the circumstances. The only difference would be that Lexus owners would be smart enough to go after the people actually responsible instead of trying to rationalize why the car companies should cover it.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by JesseG

It’s interesting to see how long a car CAN last if you keep it and maintain it properly.

First, a correction, the Mustang is a 2005, not a 1995, not sure what I was smoking when I typed that.

We tend to drive cars until the only value left in them is to crush them into coffee table cubes.

We've also owned 2 Chevy Astro vans, 1989 (210,000 miles) and a 2000 that had 280,000 miles on it. Our other current vehicle is a 2004 Suburban we bought in 2013 with 85,000 miles on it that is now over 165,000 miles.

The first Astro blew it's engine with about 5,000 miles left on the warranty (oil pump failure) and was replaced as well as repainted under warranty (the roof started to peel).

The second one made it to 280,000 miles with no major issues but died a horrible death when a motor bearing seized. I considered doing an LS swap on it, but got a decent offer from the mechanic that had it as he wanted to convert it to pull his weekend racer. I still see it on the road occasionally.

The Suburban has an off again/on again electrical gremlin that has drained the battery I've been chasing for a year (but think I have finally eliminated). Other than than that, I'd still drive it, or either of our other two cars, cross country and back with no hesitation.

We will be looking at replacing one of them soon, just not sure which. What we don't want to happen is all three high mileage cars to go out on us at the same time.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

First, a correction, the Mustang is a 2005, not a 1995, not sure what I was smoking when I typed that.

We tend to drive cars until the only value left in them is to crush them into coffee table cubes.

We've also owned 2 Chevy Astro vans, 1989 (210,000 miles) and a 2000 that had 280,000 miles on it. Our other current vehicle is a 2004 Suburban we bought in 2013 with 85,000 miles on it that is now over 165,000 miles.

The first Astro blew it's engine with about 5,000 miles left on the warranty (oil pump failure) and was replaced as well as repainted under warranty (the roof started to peel).

The second one made it to 280,000 miles with no major issues but died a horrible death when a motor bearing seized. I considered doing an LS swap on it, but got a decent offer from the mechanic that had it as he wanted to convert it to pull his weekend racer. I still see it on the road occasionally.

The Suburban has an off again/on again electrical gremlin that has drained the battery I've been chasing for a year (but think I have finally eliminated). Other than than that, I'd still drive it, or either of our other two cars, cross country and back with no hesitation.

We will be looking at replacing one of them soon, just not sure which. What we don't want to happen is all three high mileage cars to go out on us at the same time.

That is still awesome, it’s great to hear about cars being used longer and not tossed aside after a few years.
I have fond memories of the late 80’s Chevy Astro van, my dad drove one. My brother and I thought it was fast at the time. We would try to stand up while he took off from a light, wow what different times. It also sounds like something from Talladega Nights. Lol
Imagine if more people drove their cars longer! It won’t ever happen because of emissions standards getting more strict, which is sad. And not to get too political, but having any internal combustion engine might be difficult depending on who gets elected. Good luck switching over to all electric and taking people’s cars away, talk about a pipe dream.


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[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JesseG

That is still awesome, it’s great to hear about cars being used longer and not tossed aside after a few years.
I have fond memories of the late 80’s Chevy Astro van, my dad drove one. My brother and I thought it was fast at the time. We would try to stand up while he took off from a light, wow what different times. It also sounds like something from Talladega Nights. Lol
Imagine if more people drove their cars longer! It won’t ever happen because of emissions standards getting more strict, which is sad. And not to get too political, but having any internal combustion engine might be difficult depending on who gets elected. Good luck switching over to all electric and taking people’s cars away, talk about a pipe dream.


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LOL




I win!
1982 and 2003 year round daily drivers!

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

There was no confusion over what needed to be done. They released very specific instructions on how to remove and reinstall the springs and seal the engine back up. Any half decent backyard mechanic could do it if they just paid attention. It is a simple valve spring replacement not some unknown sorcery and the screw ups had nothing to do with the actual task.

Now they should have given new cars to those that the DEALERS screwed up? How in the world is that the ""right thing"? That is the road to bankruptcy since no person in their right mind would buy their stocks.

Lexus would likely do the exact same thing under the circumstances. The only difference would be that Lexus owners would be smart enough to go after the people actually responsible instead of trying to rationalize why the car companies should cover it.

Ehhhh, I don’t remember the fix being that cut and dry, especially in the beginning of issues popping up. Weren’t people getting all sorts of funky CEL’s and getting the runaround from dealers? I thought there were cam timing issues happening. Some people were told it’s all normal, only to have the CEL’s continue to pop up. Other people had engines replaced? You would know better than me, but I thought it was a very frustrating time for a lot of twin owners. I totally understand that to troubleshoot some engine problems can be difficult, and dealerships will throw parts at a car to hope the problem goes away. Or, tell you it’s “normal” and send you on your way.
The J02 recall shouldn’t be too difficult for a trained tech, but would you be completely ok with your car needing the engine pulled and opened up? It’s almost guaranteed that it won’t be returned to you the same, like having crash damage repaired.
I’m not saying Toyota/Subaru should have just given out new cars. But for the people who had a bunch of problems and failed engines, something should have been done to make them whole. Buy out the old car and give a good deal on a new car, or at least extend the warranty. You don’t think that would just be a drop in the bucket to Toyota? It wouldn’t have affected shareholders at all. LOL


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[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by JesseG

...at least extend the warranty.

The repair has a 12 month warranty on it. I see no reason why they would extend the warranty beyond the repair failure. That is, by the way, why the ones that failed were covered and repaired (for the most part).

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by JesseG

T It won’t ever happen because of emissions standards getting more strict, which is sad. And not to get too political, but having any internal combustion engine might be difficult depending on who gets elected.

Changing standards typically effect new cars, not older cars, so really it will be a gradual change over time, unless there is some huge buy-back which I don't see happening in the current environment. Heck you can still register and daily drive a Model T if you want.

I'm having internal debate about my next car being electric. If so, it won't be for 3 to 5 years. By then, with Ford and GM jumping in with both feet, the infrastructure will be better. I don't really care what juice powers my HP, as long as I can get in it and drive the way I want to drive. The only thing stopping electric right now is charge times, but for daily driving it would be fine.

[nikitopo]

I remember that when the first dealer issues appeared, there was an additional instruction by factory on how and where to apply the sealant. However, I might be wrong. I didn't pay too much attention, because my car was not in the list of cars to be fixed.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JesseG

Ehhhh, I don’t remember the fix being that cut and dry, especially in the beginning of issues popping up. Weren’t people getting all sorts of funky CEL’s and getting the runaround from dealers? I thought there were cam timing issues happening. Some people were told it’s all normal, only to have the CEL’s continue to pop up. Other people had engines replaced? You would know better than me, but I thought it was a very frustrating time for a lot of twin owners. I totally understand that to troubleshoot some engine problems can be difficult, and dealerships will throw parts at a car to hope the problem goes away. Or, tell you it’s “normal” and send you on your way.
The J02 recall shouldn’t be too difficult for a trained tech, but would you be completely ok with your car needing the engine pulled and opened up? It’s almost guaranteed that it won’t be returned to you the same, like having crash damage repaired.
I’m not saying Toyota/Subaru should have just given out new cars. But for the people who had a bunch of problems and failed engines, something should have been done to make them whole. Buy out the old car and give a good deal on a new car, or at least extend the warranty. You don’t think that would just be a drop in the bucket to Toyota? It wouldn’t have affected shareholders at all. LOL


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You are mixing up several different issues. The cam timing had nothing to do with the spring nor the oil starvation failures.
I will say again, this is a simple valve spring replacement not voodoo. Even a first year trainee should be able to do it by following the instructions. There are noobs to cars on here that do far more complicated work in their driveway without a fully equipped shop. The only issue with the recall work was carless techs that did or could not follow basic instructions.




There were 450,000 cars involved in this recall. The others did not have issues because they did not use the sealant that was improperly installed by the dealer techs and caused the engines to bow up. It is as simple as that.
Buying out a car and giving a discount on a new one isn't the same as giving them a new one outright? Yes when you look at Toyota's total profits it certainly would appear they could absorb that. But it is because they do not do such things that the profit exists in the first place. It would not be long before they were in serious financial trouble if they just started handing out new cars ever time a dealer tech screwed one up. As it is the recall cost Subaru $450 MILLION in revenue. That can indeed break a company fast.


Toyota nor Subaru as a company were responsible for the shoddy repairs that damaged cars. The dealerships were. The companies do not own nor manage the dealerships they sell their product to them and pay for warranty repairs. If the dealership screws up those repairs it is on them to make it right NOT the maker of the car. If you went to the store and bought milk out of a broken cooler and found it was bad would you go looking to the farmer that milked the cows for reimbursement?