Will you wait for the second model year to purchase your 86?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I bought a 2020 model, because I needed a car as soon as possible. Even if I could wait, it was too risky to wait for the next generation model. If next model is a worthwhile change, then I'll wait a couple more years to have all the known issues sorted out.

There were enough recorded issues, even if minor, for the first year of MANY cars that I always shy away from them. I am not worried enough about being an early adapter to not have the patience to wait for the second run. Even the small incremental changes can make waiting worthwhile. With the 14 the knee pads and "better" HU alone would have made it worth my while to wait.


Funny this thread was started well before even the first car was sold in 2009 but is now once again relevant.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by YamahaR86

I was on stock wheels when they broke. Rotating my tires and I was using the included tools to remove the wheels. Never had an issue breaking studs on any other car.


Not a user error for the bumper if even subaru of japan released a part to "fix" the issue.



I would disagree and say my window seal issue is a big issue. Others have had their seals deform because of the window indexing and letting water in. I get wind buffering and my tint only lasts a year before I have to replace it (a $300 job for quality tint and work at a shop).

That really sucks I’m sorry that happened about the wheel studs. It seems like they are prone to break on some cars. I’ve had wheels on and off my car a bunch of times. This is a good reminder to be very careful about it.

I suppose the bumper sag issue affected enough people that Subaru released a “fix”. I may have the same issue eventually. Although my car is about 5 years old at this point.

The window indexing issue was corrected though right? I thought that was fixed a while ago. Toyota should have helped pay for new tint at the very least. I’ve learned to be careful about not pulling my door opened too fast (especially teaching my daughter not to rip the door open ), and keeping the windows and seals clean. Luckily we don’t get much ice or snow here.


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[DarkSunrise]

I bought one of the first 2013 models back in 2012. Actually it's been 8 years to the day! Still love the car. List of issues I've had:

1. Idle CEL issue @ new.
Free warranty fix, reflash.

2. Transient ignition retard reflash @ 1.5y/11k miles.
Free TSB fix, reflash. I had this TSB applied preemptively. Was the right call as I've heard some folks who didn't get this done had DI seal issues as a result.

3. Coil pack @ 3y/20k miles.
Replaced myself. Not really Toyota's fault (almost certainly caused by heat from track and aftermarket header) so I didn't use the warranty. Had a second coil pack go as well, again likely from track use. I believe the coil packs and wiring harness were redesigned to be more robust in 2015.

4. Oil leak from cam cover plate @ 5y/27k miles.
Replaced myself with Raceseng plate. No problems since. Could have gone warranty route but I wanted a better designed part.

5. J02 Valve Spring Recall @ 7y/32k miles.
Recall fix. The 800 pound gorilla.

6. TOB issue @ 8y/36k miles.
Replaced with revised TOB. Installed stage 1 clutch/LWFW while trans was out.

I don't mind any of those issues, especially for a first year car, other than the J02 valve spring recall. That one put owners in a bad spot because if you didn't get the recall done, Toyota/Subaru were essentially telling you the engine might fail catastrophically. But if you did get it done, it was known that some techs were incorrectly applying sealant during the repair causing oil starvation and again, catastrophic engine failure. If your engine was sealed properly no problems, but if not, it was essentially a ticking time-bomb and not guaranteed that Toyota/Subaru would pick up the tab.

I think I'm in the clear on that one with 6000 post-recall miles (and plenty of canyon and track time), but it was not a good spot to be placed into. I feel bad for the owners who had the recall done and had their engines fail with Toyota/Subaru denying coverage.

[p1l0t]

Now the real question is can they make me want one so bad I trade mine in for it... or will I just drive mine till it costs more to fix than is worth.

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[JesseG]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I bought one of the first 2013 models back in 2012. Actually it's been 8 years to the day! Still love the car. List of issues I've had:

1. Idle CEL issue @ new.
Free warranty fix, reflash.

2. Transient ignition retard reflash @ 1.5y/11k miles.
Free TSB fix, reflash. I had this TSB applied preemptively. Was the right call as I've heard some folks who didn't get this done had DI seal issues as a result.

3. Coil pack @ 3y/20k miles.
Replaced myself. Not really Toyota's fault (almost certainly caused by heat from track and aftermarket header) so I didn't use the warranty. Had a second coil pack go as well, again likely from track use. I believe the coil packs and wiring harness were redesigned to be more robust in 2015.

4. Oil leak from cam cover plate @ 5y/27k miles.
Replaced myself with Raceseng plate. No problems since. Could have gone warranty route but I wanted a better designed part.

5. J02 Valve Spring Recall @ 7y/32k miles.
Recall fix. The 800 pound gorilla.

6. TOB issue @ 8y/36k miles.
Replaced with revised TOB. Installed stage 1 clutch/LWFW while trans was out.

I don't mind any of those issues, especially for a first year car, other than the J02 valve spring recall. That one put owners in a bad spot because if you didn't get the recall done, Toyota/Subaru were essentially telling you the engine might fail catastrophically. But if you did get it done, it was known that some techs were incorrectly applying sealant during the repair causing oil starvation and again, catastrophic engine failure. If your engine was sealed properly no problems, but if not, it was essentially a ticking time-bomb and not guaranteed that Toyota/Subaru would pick up the tab.

I think I'm in the clear on that one with 6000 post-recall miles (and plenty of canyon and track time), but it was not a good spot to be placed into. I feel bad for the owners who had the recall done and had their engines fail with Toyota/Subaru denying coverage.

This is a ton of good info on a very early build twin. And big props to you for replacing some things on your own because you knew you were putting your car through some extra stress. That to me is exactly what an owner of a sports car should expect to do.

The way you talked about the J02 recall makes me think a little differently about it. You are exactly right, it put owners in that VIN range in an extremely difficult position. Don’t get it done, and if you had any engine related issues, it likely wouldn’t be covered by warranty. Get it done, and you ran the risk of something going wrong because of sloppy work. I know some guys/gals had their engine die from oil starvation after the recall was done. That is completely unacceptable, and Toyota/Subaru should have stepped up and taken care of those people. Even if it meant putting them in a newer model year car. I miss the days of real customer service and care. What would Lexus do in that situation? Most likely bend over backwards to help the customer. Toyota should do the same. It’s almost like a bunch of people were punished for supporting this car from the very beginning.

Your attitude about all of it is awesome, seriously. I can tell you love the car’s merits enough to move past all of those issues. And most of the issues weren’t anything too bad at all. The valve spring recall fiasco is the one big blemish on the early twins. From what I understand it was due to faulty parts provided to Toyota and Subaru, but they should have taken care of their customers better.


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[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JesseG

This is a ton of good info on a very early build twin. And big props to you for replacing some things on your own because you knew you were putting your car through some extra stress. That to me is exactly what an owner of a sports car should expect to do.

The way you talked about the J02 recall makes me think a little differently about it. You are exactly right, it put owners in that VIN range in an extremely difficult position. Don’t get it done, and if you had any engine related issues, it likely wouldn’t be covered by warranty. Get it done, and you ran the risk of something going wrong because of sloppy work. I know some guys/gals had their engine die from oil starvation after the recall was done. That is completely unacceptable, and Toyota/Subaru should have stepped up and taken care of those people. Even if it meant putting them in a newer model year car. I miss the days of real customer service and care. What would Lexus do in that situation? Most likely bend over backwards to help the customer. Toyota should do the same. It’s almost like a bunch of people were punished for supporting this car from the very beginning.

Your attitude about all of it is awesome, seriously. I can tell you love the car’s merits enough to move past all of those issues. And most of the issues weren’t anything too bad at all. The valve spring recall fiasco is the one big blemish on the early twins. From what I understand it was due to faulty parts provided to Toyota and Subaru, but they should have taken care of their customers better.


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Let's clarify some points on the valve springs.


The cars were recalled after most were already out of warranty due to miles or time. If anything except a spring broke they would not have been covered anyway.
The recall does not have an expiry date so if you broke a valve spring even years later THAT part of the repair and associated damage would have been covered under the recall warranty. The only place forced into the work was California so everybody else could have just left things alone and had repairs done if they actually broke a spring. I know of 2 people reporting broken springs on here and one of them had a story that was dubious at best.


The failures after the repairs were most certainly caused by bad application of the sealant, that is indisputable.
The number of people that were affected however is debatable.
There was a sheet here that showed about 60 people that had failures. For the sake of argument let's say the total was someplace around 10 times that number as that would seem realistic.
The majority of the people reporting here did indeed have the dealership take responsibility and have the repairs done at no cost. It was a relatively small number that had dealerships decline the repairs.
The class action suit that so many screamed for has a grand total of 6 (yes, six) names on it so the numbers are not near as bad as reading all the posts would seem. It is a classic case of hearing the bad news over and over until it seems like that was all there was when reality showed that the good news stories were actually more common. People with no problems rarely scream it around the internet.

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

There were enough recorded issues, even if minor, for the first year of MANY cars that I always shy away from them. I am not worried enough about being an early adapter to not have the patience to wait for the second run. Even the small incremental changes can make waiting worthwhile. With the 14 the knee pads and "better" HU alone would have made it worth my while to wait.

Funny this thread was started well before even the first car was sold in 2009 but is now once again relevant.

Totally agree. A car is a complex product with around 30,000 parts. Many of those are moving parts and have to work in concert with others. There are so many things that can go wrong, and it's impossible to predict and test out all the potential problems in small-scale quality control. The hard fact is that first-year buyers of almost any model are the large-scale beta testing subjects for companies.

Every first model year car I've ever bought has had problems, and I've regretted not waiting a year. My 2015 Mustang GT is the latest hemorrhoid-inducing lesson that I apparently haven't learned despite years and years of repetition.

Japanese companies are more careful than US, but even those can have problems, though they're usually minor. Every time I buy a first model year car and regret it I tell myself I'll never do it again. But I do.

In the infinitesimally tiny chance that the GR86 comes with a turbo motor, I tell myself I'd wait a year for any bugs to be worked out before running down to the Subaru dealer for one. But then, at my 60-something age, remaining time for enjoying a car, especially one with a stick, is limited. I just might (once again) put up with first-year irritations.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by JesseG

This is a ton of good info on a very early build twin. And big props to you for replacing some things on your own because you knew you were putting your car through some extra stress. That to me is exactly what an owner of a sports car should expect to do.

The way you talked about the J02 recall makes me think a little differently about it. You are exactly right, it put owners in that VIN range in an extremely difficult position. Don’t get it done, and if you had any engine related issues, it likely wouldn’t be covered by warranty. Get it done, and you ran the risk of something going wrong because of sloppy work. I know some guys/gals had their engine die from oil starvation after the recall was done. That is completely unacceptable, and Toyota/Subaru should have stepped up and taken care of those people. Even if it meant putting them in a newer model year car. I miss the days of real customer service and care. What would Lexus do in that situation? Most likely bend over backwards to help the customer. Toyota should do the same. It’s almost like a bunch of people were punished for supporting this car from the very beginning.

Your attitude about all of it is awesome, seriously. I can tell you love the car’s merits enough to move past all of those issues. And most of the issues weren’t anything too bad at all. The valve spring recall fiasco is the one big blemish on the early twins. From what I understand it was due to faulty parts provided to Toyota and Subaru, but they should have taken care of their customers better.


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Thanks! I do think people need to step up and take responsibility for their actions. If you go to the track and stuff breaks as a result, that's on you.

But it goes both ways. If you're a huge corporation like Toyota or Subaru and you know that owners' engines have oil starved due to poor sealant application from your recall campaign (which you knew would be mandated in one state that's one of your largest markets), you should step up and fully cover the affected owners.

1. It was Subaru's supplier issues that caused the valve springs to fail. They chose and vetted that supplier. Subaru likely received a huge monetary settlement or judgment against that supplier as well, which is being used to cover this recall campaign.

2. As large global corporations, Subaru/Toyota are in a better position to replace an engine (even with a used one) than any individual owner.

3. From a marketing perspective, the 86/BRZ was supposed to be Toyota/Subaru's passion project. The first adopters are the ones who took the risk to buy the car early on (and it was a commercial success that first year). Would be bad form IMO to leave those same owners out to dry.

4. This car may be majority Subaru built, but Toyota has a reputation for quality/longevity and put their name on the car. They should take (or have taken) the necessary steps to make sure the car met their quality standards.

For those reasons I think in any case where an engine fails within a year or two (or 10-20k miles) after getting the recall done, Toyota/Subaru should at the very least give the owner the benefit of the doubt and either partially cover the repair or offer a used engine replacement. I've already seen a few instances on this forum where the dealership and Toyota corporate have told the owner to pound sand which leaves a bad taste in my mouth about buying another Toyota product, to say the least.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Let's clarify some points on the valve springs.


The cars were recalled after most were already out of warranty due to miles or time. If anything except a spring broke they would not have been covered anyway.
The recall does not have an expiry date so if you broke a valve spring even years later THAT part of the repair and associated damage would have been covered under the recall warranty. The only place forced into the work was California so everybody else could have just left things alone and had repairs done if they actually broke a spring. I know of 2 people reporting broken springs on here and one of them had a story that was dubious at best.


The failures after the repairs were most certainly caused by bad application of the sealant, that is indisputable.
The number of people that were affected however is debatable.
There was a sheet here that showed about 60 people that had failures. For the sake of argument let's say the total was someplace around 10 times that number as that would seem realistic.
The majority of the people reporting here did indeed have the dealership take responsibility and have the repairs done at no cost. It was a relatively small number that had dealerships decline the repairs.
The class action suit that so many screamed for has a grand total of 6 (yes, six) names on it so the numbers are not near as bad as reading all the posts would seem. It is a classic case of hearing the bad news over and over until it seems like that was all there was when reality showed that the good news stories were actually more common. People with no problems rarely scream it around the internet.

I agree with the above, but will add that Toyota/Subaru shouldn't be leaving any individual owners out to dry. You never know if that's going to be you next.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Thanks! I do think people need to step up and take responsibility for their actions. If you go to the track and stuff breaks as a result, that's on you.

But it goes both ways. If you're a huge corporation like Toyota or Subaru and you know that owners' engines have oil starved due to poor sealant application from your recall campaign (which you knew would be mandated in one state that's one of your largest markets), you should step up and fully cover the affected owners.

1. It was Subaru's supplier issues that caused the valve springs to fail. They chose and vetted that supplier. Subaru likely received a huge monetary settlement or judgment against that supplier as well, which is being used to cover this recall campaign.

2. As large global corporations, Subaru/Toyota are in a better position to replace an engine (even with a used one) than any individual owner.

3. From a marketing perspective, the 86/BRZ was supposed to be Toyota/Subaru's passion project. The first adopters are the ones who took the risk to buy the car early on (and it was a commercial success that first year). Would be bad form IMO to leave those same owners out to dry.

4. This car may be majority Subaru built, but Toyota has a reputation for quality/longevity and put their name on the car. They should take (or have taken) the necessary steps to make sure the car met their quality standards.

For those reasons I think in any case where an engine fails within a year or two (or 10-20k miles) after getting the recall done, Toyota/Subaru should at the very least give the owner the benefit of the doubt and either partially cover the repair or offer a used engine replacement. I've already seen a few instances on this forum where the dealership and Toyota corporate have told the owner to pound sand which leaves a bad taste in my mouth about buying another Toyota product, to say the least.



I agree with the above, but will add that Toyota/Subaru shouldn't be leaving any individual owners out to dry. You never know if that's going to be you next.

Back to the whole "the dealerships are not Toyota nor Subaru" thing. The dealerships screwed it up the dealerships should fix it.
yes the goodwill shown by corporate coverage would be nice but at the same time it is in no way their responsibility. They have to draw the line someplace.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Back to the whole "the dealerships are not Toyota nor Subaru" thing. The dealerships screwed it up the dealerships should fix it.
yes the goodwill shown by corporate coverage would be nice but at the same time it is in no way their responsibility. They have to draw the line someplace.

I'd prefer they draw the line to include those owners

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I'd prefer they draw the line to include those owners

So would I but business is business. You don't think the shareholders would take the hit for such things do you? We could quickly end up with no new cars under $50K if they made up for every dealer screw up. The money has to come from someplace.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

So would I but business is business. You don't think the shareholders would take the hit for such things do you? We could quickly end up with no new cars under $50K if they made up for every dealer screw up. The money has to come from someplace.

Just my opinion - if they had been smart about it, the money would be coming from whatever judgment/settlement they received from the supplier that provided the faulty valve springs. Dealership techs screwing up something as involved as a complete valve spring replacement on a H-4 engine seems fairly predictable to me (and I'm not in the automotive industry). You'd think for experts within Toyota and Subaru who have many lifetimes of experience, they'd have seen this coming a mile away and have built in compensation for some degree of complete engine failures into the judgment/settlement they received.

I also don't think that's too harsh of a punishment for the supplier given (from what I understand) they intentionally falsified material testing data.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Just my opinion - if they had been smart about it, the money would be coming from whatever judgment/settlement they received from the supplier that provided the faulty valve springs. Dealership techs screwing up something as involved as a complete valve spring replacement on a H-4 engine seems fairly predictable to me (and I'm not in the automotive industry). You'd think for experts within Toyota and Subaru who have many lifetimes of experience, they'd have seen this coming a mile away and have built in compensation for some degree of complete engine failures into the judgment/settlement they received.

I also don't think that's too harsh of a punishment for the supplier given (from what I understand) they intentionally falsified material testing data.

Presuming there was any settlement from the supplier that covers anything more than the bad parts.
Again, not even the supplier's fault that people can't follow simple directions in sealing an engine.


We have no clue what the whole story behind the bad parts was but I assure you that sort of thing happens all the time across the industry.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Let's clarify some points on the valve springs.


The cars were recalled after most were already out of warranty due to miles or time. If anything except a spring broke they would not have been covered anyway.
The recall does not have an expiry date so if you broke a valve spring even years later THAT part of the repair and associated damage would have been covered under the recall warranty. The only place forced into the work was California so everybody else could have just left things alone and had repairs done if they actually broke a spring. I know of 2 people reporting broken springs on here and one of them had a story that was dubious at best.


The failures after the repairs were most certainly caused by bad application of the sealant, that is indisputable.
The number of people that were affected however is debatable.
There was a sheet here that showed about 60 people that had failures. For the sake of argument let's say the total was someplace around 10 times that number as that would seem realistic.
The majority of the people reporting here did indeed have the dealership take responsibility and have the repairs done at no cost. It was a relatively small number that had dealerships decline the repairs.
The class action suit that so many screamed for has a grand total of 6 (yes, six) names on it so the numbers are not near as bad as reading all the posts would seem. It is a classic case of hearing the bad news over and over until it seems like that was all there was when reality showed that the good news stories were actually more common. People with no problems rarely scream it around the internet.

Really good insight thank you! I still feel bad for the early adopters that had to deal with it. I would be upset if my car needed the engine removed at such low miles. Although it sounds like most people didn’t get the TSB until after the factory warranty was up. I remember several threads about strange fault codes popping up, related to cam timing? I’m not sure if that was connected to the valve spring issue. It seemed like a very frustrating time for twin owners. I do think you made an awesome point that it feels like it was worse than it was, because it’s been discussed so much on here. The number of people affected was (hopefully) small. I still think Toyota and Subaru should have stepped up more to make it right for those affected. Especially the people who had engine failures from dealership work. That is insane. I wouldn’t want to keep my car long term in that situation, and you would have to fight with insurance over diminished value. Not fun.


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