Video: Toyota GR86 SPIED for the First Time!

[TheDonEffect]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Point of clarification for this often misused term.
The Supras much like the Twins now, sold, and still sell, just fine. The manufacturers plan how many they want, build to that plan and sell them all.
Cars like the Aztec, Edsel, Corvair, etc, did not sell well! Unless there were hidden fields of unsold Supras that they eventually deeply discounted or even crushed (they crushed thousands of unsold Aztecs) then sales were not an issue.
The turbo Supra back then and the modern version now were and are niche cars that were built in limited numbers on purpose. They never were looking for Corolla or Camry quantities since there just was not that big a market.
It is easy to tell when a car isn't selling since you will see piles of them gather dust in the back lot of dealers, they sell them for huge discounts or they start giving them away as prizes in Cracker Jack boxes.

Actually, I'm old enough to have lived through that, there was a global slow down of sales and those cars sat. A guy i knew growing up bought a brand new 95 supra turbo stick in silver no less for 10k off. They were massively discounted back then. Heck I remember dc2 integra type r sitting in showrooms being discounted.

Its the reason why nossan didn't make another Z for a while, same with Mazda, Toyota, etc. Sure they eventually sold the cars, i mean what else were they going to do with them?

[TheDonEffect]

Originally Posted by daiheadjai

There's a quote I found on the S2ki forums that dealt with something similar in the change from the AP1 (peaky 2.0L engine that revved to 9,000rpm) to the AP2 (2.2L engine that increased torque and enhanced driveability, with a "reduced" 8,300rpm redline):

"The AP2 is a better car, but the AP1 is a better S2000"

I wonder if the FA24 will bring us to a similar dilemma. Although I did watch a Youtube video that suggested the FA24 is a real gem (supposedly building in all the lessons learned from the FA20, including having beehive springs and other enhancements which should allow it to rev fairly high)

Colour me cautiously-optimistic!

I'm thinking there will be enough of a power bump to put the 60 times into the 5s, to keep pace with the nd2 miata and 4 banger pony cars sans performance upgrades. I thibk its very doable without having to mess with the recipe, I mean mazda more or less did it without changing much.

Fwiw, I owned two AP1s and an AP2, the AP2 is the better car and s2000, the ap1 is the better novelty with its unusual 9000 redline. They're also discernibly faster, and moderately easier to drive day to day. Also of the 9k was missed, a tune will remedy that. The 06+ ap2s are the ones to get.

That said, I preferred driving an 86 in every way except the fa20 which just left me underwhelmed. I'm sure that topic has been beat to death here so I'll leave it as I'm hopeful for the fa24.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by TheDonEffect

Actually, I'm old enough to have lived through that, there was a global slow down of sales and those cars sat. A guy i knew growing up bought a brand new 95 supra turbo stick in silver no less for 10k off. They were massively discounted back then. Heck I remember dc2 integra type r sitting in showrooms being discounted.

Its the reason why nossan didn't make another Z for a while, same with Mazda, Toyota, etc. Sure they eventually sold the cars, i mean what else were they going to do with them?

I am old enough to have lived through that one and a couple before it!


I will rephrase though. "They sold as well as any other car did between 1992 and 1996". As you pointed out it was not just the Supra that took the hit it was all cars.

[gymratter]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

^^In retrospect that was probably a blessing in disguise. Did anyone really wanted a reskin version of this with a Supra badge?

ran across these really old scans

[gymratter]

they is also a differences from just selling/move them off the lot and selling well with little to no incentives.

ex. with the new Supra they are offering 0 percent financing, and anywhere from $10k-$5k off of MSRP.

[daiheadjai]

Originally Posted by TheDonEffect

I'm thinking there will be enough of a power bump to put the 60 times into the 5s, to keep pace with the nd2 miata and 4 banger pony cars sans performance upgrades. I thibk its very doable without having to mess with the recipe, I mean mazda more or less did it without changing much.

Fwiw, I owned two AP1s and an AP2, the AP2 is the better car and s2000, the ap1 is the better novelty with its unusual 9000 redline. They're also discernibly faster, and moderately easier to drive day to day. Also of the 9k was missed, a tune will remedy that. The 06+ ap2s are the ones to get.

That said, I preferred driving an 86 in every way except the fa20 which just left me underwhelmed. I'm sure that topic has been beat to death here so I'll leave it as I'm hopeful for the fa24.

I test-drove a 2017 in the process of helping my brother in law buy a BRZ (he doesn't drive stick yet) and the steering and suspension are just far superior - like you said, the FA20 is adequate, but not outstanding (which puts it below the average on the BRZ/86).

Haven't had a chance to drive a AP2 sadly (mine is an AP1)

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by gymratter

ran across these really old scans

I recall, that is essentially what it would have been. A slightly less hideous rebody SC430 (Soarer) with a Supra badge.

FYI, those spy shots were probably nothing more than a hacked up SC chassis used for the LFA development, aka test mule.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by daiheadjai

I wonder if the FA24 will bring us to a similar dilemma. Although I did watch a Youtube video that suggested the FA24 is a real gem (supposedly building in all the lessons learned from the FA20, including having beehive springs and other enhancements which should allow it to rev fairly high)

Colour me cautiously-optimistic!

Originally Posted by TheDonEffect

That said, I preferred driving an 86 in every way except the fa20 which just left me underwhelmed. I'm sure that topic has been beat to death here so I'll leave it as I'm hopeful for the fa24.

I've got an FR-S with E85 tune. A friend of mine has a stock AP2. We drive pretty often together in the canyons and usually swap cars for a few runs. We were discussing the possibility of a gen2 with FA24 the other day. Both of us think it might actually be a really good fit.

An E85 FR-S is probably a decent model for what an FA24 gen2 would drive like since the E85 tune bumps torque 10-15% across the board (similar to what an increase in displacement might feel like). It's not a huge increase in power, maybe 230 hp, but enough for an FR-S to be neck-and-neck with a slightly heavier AP2 from 5-80 mph. More importantly, the engine feels more satisfying to drive. It ends up feeling like an F22C with a stronger midrange and less top end.

If Toyota/Subaru can keep the weight in check on the gen2 and make 230 hp from the FA24, I think it'll appeal to anyone who thinks the S2000 has enough power. (And it'd really start to get interesting if an FA24 on E85 tune could make another 15% on top of that without needing to touch the cats/exhaust.)

[WolfpackS2k]

^I agree 100%

[TheDonEffect]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I've got an FR-S with E85 tune. A friend of mine has a stock AP2. We drive pretty often together in the canyons and usually swap cars for a few runs. We were discussing the possibility of a gen2 with FA24 the other day. Both of us think it might actually be a really good fit.

An E85 FR-S is probably a decent model for what an FA24 gen2 would drive like since the E85 tune bumps torque 10-15% across the board (similar to what an increase in displacement might feel like). It's not a huge increase in power, maybe 230 hp, but enough for an FR-S to be neck-and-neck with a slightly heavier AP2 from 5-80 mph. More importantly, the engine feels more satisfying to drive. It ends up feeling like an F22C with a stronger midrange and less top end.

If Toyota/Subaru can keep the weight in check on the gen2 and make 230 hp from the FA24, I think it'll appeal to anyone who thinks the S2000 has enough power. (And it'd really start to get interesting if an FA24 on E85 tune could make another 15% on top of that without needing to touch the cats/exhaust.)

Yeah I'm definitely coming around to this fact. At first it was Turbo or bust for me, but when I took a step back and really though about it, this car coming with a ton of power from the factory will probably change alot of things I like about this car.

I had this epiphany when I rented a POS Open hatchback when I was on vacation. It really was a hunk of shit, but I had a ton of fun driving it around, just a nimble peppy little thing. Far too often, powerful cars have huge, stick tires, very capable suspensions, and a ton of bracing. Makes you feel like you're driving a tank when you're driving it at legal speeds. I've had my share of those cars, and while they can be like a rollercoaster in terms of thrills, like a rollercoaster, if you're not going stupid fast theyre just a pain to be on.

The 86 has a playfulness that I enjoy. My ideal would be having a detuned FA24 since they could sneak in the engine without having to ruin the formula, but I get it that this will not happen considering that the Supra 2.0 starts at 43k and does 60 in mid 5s. Having a turbo 86 will creep the car close to or surpass the Supra 2.0.

But your insight is enlightening, as it is a good, hmm, test mule for what may be the new 86. And I'm glad you had the S2000 to compare to, so good to know that at 230 it's on par with an S2000.

[TheDonEffect]

Originally Posted by daiheadjai

I test-drove a 2017 in the process of helping my brother in law buy a BRZ (he doesn't drive stick yet) and the steering and suspension are just far superior - like you said, the FA20 is adequate, but not outstanding (which puts it below the average on the BRZ/86).

Haven't had a chance to drive a AP2 sadly (mine is an AP1)

Yeah, the steering feel alone just made the car feel more playful and nimble. I always felt that in some ways the S2000 felt heavy, even though it definitely was not.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Heritage is only important to the marketing department so that perceptions of a brand can be born. Te cars you named gave a perception of brand to about .001% of the car buying population. All the rest have a totally different perception and don't know nor care that those other cars ever existed.

Twenty years ago I would have said "who cares?" and meant it. You could pick Supras up for dirt cheap 20 years ago.
Then that damned movie came out and it became a legend to people that have never even sat in one much less drove it.

I would not have been surprised if I had cared though because I had already owned and wore out a joint venture car. Joint ventures are not new and a project with BMW is not as crazy as some would think.

I think cars like the FD RX-7, MkIV Supra, and 300ZX TT will continue to be appreciated more as time goes on, and fewer clean unmodified examples are out there. You can probably throw the Lancer EVO’s and special editions of the GC8 WRX and STi in that group also. The EVO lineup is really interesting because you have basically 10 “evolutions” of the car to become collectible. I can’t imagine many clean examples of any of them are still out there.
The popularity of the Supra started well before F&F, tuning companies in Japan were doing some crazy stuff, and it was quickly becoming a halo/legend type of car. I spent countless hours driving one in Gran Turismo. I agree that F&F catapulted it into the stratosphere. Looking back I don’t think that was a bad thing. Those movies were terrible, but in a fun way, and brought attention to some cool cars. Even if they looked silly with the body kits and neon lights. They basically Hollywood’ized a culture that had been around for a long time.
And I have nothing against collaborations to make a better car. I also owned a DSM and that was a fun car. I’m not exactly sure how much Mitsubishi gained from the partnership but it seemed to work out for everyone. My biggest problem with the Toyota/BMW project is it doesn’t seem like Toyota had much say in anything. They were just sort of along for the ride. Why rely on a company with very suspect reliability, especially with engines, to develop your halo car? I know BMW has made some awesome cars, but it is just an odd pairing to me.


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[86MLR]

Originally Posted by JesseG

I think cars like the FD RX-7, MkIV Supra, and 300ZX TT will continue to be appreciated more as time goes on, and fewer clean unmodified examples are out there. You can probably throw the Lancer EVO’s and special editions of the GC8 WRX and STi in that group also. The EVO lineup is really interesting because you have basically 10 “evolutions” of the car to become collectible. I can’t imagine many clean examples of any of them are still out there.
The popularity of the Supra started well before F&F, tuning companies in Japan were doing some crazy stuff, and it was quickly becoming a halo/legend type of car. I spent countless hours driving one in Gran Turismo. I agree that F&F catapulted it into the stratosphere. Looking back I don’t think that was a bad thing. Those movies were terrible, but in a fun way, and brought attention to some cool cars. Even if they looked silly with the body kits and neon lights. They basically Hollywood’ized a culture that had been around for a long time.
And I have nothing against collaborations to make a better car. I also owned a DSM and that was a fun car. I’m not exactly sure how much Mitsubishi gained from the partnership but it seemed to work out for everyone. My biggest problem with the Toyota/BMW project is it doesn’t seem like Toyota had much say in anything. They were just sort of along for the ride. Why rely on a company with very suspect reliability, especially with engines, to develop your halo car? I know BMW has made some awesome cars, but it is just an odd pairing to me.


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Here in Australia we have been buying and crashing Skyline GTR's, S chassis, Mazda rotarys and lots of cool Japanese cars for 30 years or more.

There isn't many good ones left, rust and damage has taken its toll.

Thus, all these classic old cars have been going through the roof for the last 10 years or more.

All the young guys from the 70's, 80's and 90's that have the cash are now willing to pay big dollars for good cars, this also drives up the prices of poor cars.

Thread I'm currently watching IRT Nissan prices in Australia https://www.sau.com.au/forums/topic/...alysis/page/2/

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JesseG

I think cars like the FD RX-7, MkIV Supra, and 300ZX TT will continue to be appreciated more as time goes on, and fewer clean unmodified examples are out there. You can probably throw the Lancer EVO’s and special editions of the GC8 WRX and STi in that group also. The EVO lineup is really interesting because you have basically 10 “evolutions” of the car to become collectible. I can’t imagine many clean examples of any of them are still out there.
The popularity of the Supra started well before F&F, tuning companies in Japan were doing some crazy stuff, and it was quickly becoming a halo/legend type of car. I spent countless hours driving one in Gran Turismo. I agree that F&F catapulted it into the stratosphere. Looking back I don’t think that was a bad thing. Those movies were terrible, but in a fun way, and brought attention to some cool cars. Even if they looked silly with the body kits and neon lights. They basically Hollywood’ized a culture that had been around for a long time.
And I have nothing against collaborations to make a better car. I also owned a DSM and that was a fun car. I’m not exactly sure how much Mitsubishi gained from the partnership but it seemed to work out for everyone. My biggest problem with the Toyota/BMW project is it doesn’t seem like Toyota had much say in anything. They were just sort of along for the ride. Why rely on a company with very suspect reliability, especially with engines, to develop your halo car? I know BMW has made some awesome cars, but it is just an odd pairing to me.


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I didn't say it wasn't a popular car before the movie, in fact I was stating it sold well (for the times). I said that it did not reach legendary status until it was the star of the movie. The racing video games that came out later also introduced a whole new generation to the hype. I am very glad that you didn't seem serious when you said you "drove" them in the games.
In the movie when he gets the only 6 year old car it looked like it had been sitting in a field for 20 years but the story of the REAL car (although not as bad of a condition) is interesting because even it was not pristine nor anything close to the movie version when Lieberman started the project well before the movie. It is interesting to note that the producers didn't go looking for a Supra but more like saw it and said "let's use this but we need to change it to make it look more like a tuner car". The movie was based on the "tuner" crowds of the time but in the end the crowd changed to more closely match the fiction. Sort of a tail wagging the dog thing happened. https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...nd-the-furious


I bought my 91 Talon in 92 when I was 33 years old and followed the "car scene" pretty closely. Yes, there was a following for the Supra back then but it was even smaller than what the 86 has now. The bulk of the public had no idea what it was and just didn't care. To go back to the original statement you made about making cars for "heritage" this means that the people back then made up a very tiny group. There is a much larger group interested in most of the cars you mentioned now than there was back when they were made. Perceptions are really skewed when looking back that far.