Video: Toyota GR86 SPIED for the First Time!

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by WildCard600

If this thing is built with such a razor thin margin of durability that 50 extra hp is going to cause it to blow apart at the pinch welds I'm not sure I feel safe driving it at all.

I will agree that some people seem to have unrealistic expectations about getting a turbo at the current or ever so slightly higher price point, but I don't think it would suddenly catapult the car into Supra $$$.

Im using CAD pricing here...but the most expensive 86 MSRP is $35,050.
The cheapest Supra 2.0 MSRP is $56,390. There is a huge price gap between the two cars, and yes a turbo isnt gonna somehow add 20g to the price..

HOWEVER, if we use the Mazda3 for comparison (they just intro'd a turbo model). The closest i can get for a spec for spec comparison between the two is a Mazda3 GT AWD hatch (premium package) is MSRP $33,376 INCLUDING freight + PDI.
The press release states that a Mazda3 GT AWD Turbo is $35,600 + 1750 for frieght + PDI = $38,350,
almost $5000 dollar difference just for a different engine.
less 2300 if you dont get the premium package with turbo.

So a turbo 86 would realistically add somewhere between $2500-5000 to the price....lowest price in Canada starts at 30,000....its already went up in price since the Scion badge died (i think it was around $27000 when it was a Scion)

Is it worth that? Especially since some people think the 86 is somewhat overpriced already.

[Vides990]

Originally Posted by WildCard600

I don't disagree, but to me the supra might as well have stayed dead vs what Toyota put together. If I wanted to mess with janky BMW engineering I would just buy a BMW.

I think the fact that a WRX starts at $27k with turbo and AWD is the reason people are incredulous that a forced induction 86/BRZ can't be possible in the low/mid $30k range.

At the end of the day I've already come to terms with the fact that I'm going to have to build my 86 to get it to where I think it should have been in the first place. If Toyota thinks that is a winning strategy to get me to come back to their sports car trough again, they are more out of touch than I realized.

Originally Posted by WildCard600

If this thing is built with such a razor thin margin of durability that 50 extra hp is going to cause it to blow apart at the pinch welds I'm not sure I feel safe driving it at all.

I will agree that some people seem to have unrealistic expectations about getting a turbo at the current or ever so slightly higher price point, but I don't think it would suddenly catapult the car into Supra $$$.

No offense meant as many people have voiced this same thought, so this isn't directed at you, but all it means is that you don't understand economies of scale and manufacturing production. Anybody can think whatever they want to, but it doesn't mean they're thinking accurately or realistically. Again, I apologize if that comes of as aholish.

[WildCard600]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

Im using CAD pricing here...but the most expensive 86 MSRP is $35,050.
The cheapest Supra 2.0 MSRP is $56,390. There is a huge price gap between the two cars, and yes a turbo isnt gonna somehow add 20g to the price..

HOWEVER, if we use the Mazda3 for comparison (they just intro'd a turbo model). The closest i can get for a spec for spec comparison between the two is a Mazda3 GT AWD hatch (premium package) is MSRP $33,376 INCLUDING freight + PDI.
The press release states that a Mazda3 GT AWD Turbo is $35,600 + 1750 for frieght + PDI = $38,350,
almost $5000 dollar difference just for a different engine.
less 2300 if you dont get the premium package with turbo.

So a turbo 86 would realistically add somewhere between $2500-5000 to the price....lowest price in Canada starts at 30,000....its already went up in price since the Scion badge died (i think it was around $27000 when it was a Scion)

Is it worth that? Especially since some people think the 86 is somewhat overpriced already.

I would have gladly paid an extra 2500-5000 dollars. I'm going to be spending more than that supercharging my car and forfeiting my 10 year 150,000 mile warranty in the process.

[NoHaveMSG]

Wonder if the FA24 has the larger oil pump like the FA20DIT?

[WildCard600]

Originally Posted by Vides990

No offense meant as many people have voiced this same thought, so this isn't directed at you, but all it means is that you don't understand economies of scale and manufacturing production. Anybody can think whatever they want to, but it doesn't mean they're thinking accurately or realistically. Again, I apologize if that comes of as aholish.

No offense taken.

But I don't see how this is a economy of scale issue. Subaru already builds piles of slightly different engines in turbo form. Revised turbo piping or intercooler design if necessary isn't going to balloon the price point to astronomical levels. If anything using a single engine across both the WRX line and the 86/BRZ should bring prices down, not up.

A lot of people have perceived the hesitance of a factory turbo twin as desire to not pull sales away from the WRX. I think that is a more likely scenario than some insurmountable (read: expensive) engineering problem.

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by Vides990

You have a special kind of logic. "Everyone wants a turbo 4," they give you one in the supra and now it's "but that's the wrong car wahhh" the 86 was never designed for a turbo so it didn't and won't get one. Toyota did listen and gave the complainers the options they wanted in the 86 in the supra (at the market price a turbo 86 would cost) but no it's still wrong and "no one wanted it." The supra literally is the 2nd choice.....

The 2.0 Zupra is a hot mess. It's way too expensive for what it is and heavy as shit. They didn't even bother to package it correctly. No manual or LSD. Even two of this sites mods agrees with that. Pretty sure they they just watered down their "halo" sports car to just sell a hand full more.

[mazeroni]

Based on the conversation up to this point, I think I can solve everyone's problem. This car I am going to offer you is under $25K, has a manual, 300hp, it's a coupe with 4 seats, nothing you don't want, a spacious truck, low cost to insure, and it is quite efficient.



I know the badge scares a lot of people, but this is the car you all keep bringing up without saying it. Just give in. Go for a test drive and take advantage of the incentives.

[Vides990]

Originally Posted by WildCard600

I would have gladly paid an extra 2500-5000 dollars. I'm going to be spending more than that supercharging my car and forfeiting my 10 year 150,000 mile warranty in the process.

Those numbers he made up aren't based on anything. The fact the Supra does cost 50k+ means adding a turbo for production development to an 86 will add 10k+ or more to the vehicle price.

You need to account for development teams, the time that takes, Government safety regulations, fuel efficiency requirements (from a fleet perspective), production tooling costs and development and a whole list of more bs. The costs of ALL those things get put into the price of the vehicle.

The reason it works for the Mustang or Impreza/WRX/STI is because they are literally selling tens upon tens of thousands of these EVERY SINGLE YEAR. The 86/BRZ are down to what, a couple thousand now and never were over 10-15k yr 1. Even take a look at what the STI S209 costs, thats 70K and up depending on dealer addons and thats because its hand built and limited numbers (like what all STIs were back in then 90s). Which, if you're just "tossing an already made turbo 4 from Subaru in," is what you're doing.

[WildCard600]

Originally Posted by mazeroni

Based on the conversation up to this point, I think I can solve everyone's problem. This car I am going to offer you is under $25K, has a manual, 300hp, it's a coupe with 4 seats, nothing you don't want, a spacious truck, low cost to insure, and it is quite efficient.



I know the badge scares a lot of people, but this is the car you all keep bringing up without saying it. Just give in. Go for a test drive and take advantage of the incentives.

I was actually cross shopping the ecoboost mustang before I bought the 86.

I went with the 86 because I think the mustang is too heavy for what it is, I think it's kind of ugly, and that not a single MT was available within reasonable driving distance at the time.

[WildCard600]

Originally Posted by Vides990

Those numbers he made up aren't based on anything. The fact the Supra does cost 50k+ means adding a turbo for production development to an 86 will add 10k+ or more to the vehicle price.

You need to account for development teams, the time that takes, Government safety regulations, fuel efficiency requirements (from a fleet perspective), production tooling costs and development and a whole list of more bs. The costs of ALL those things get put into the price of the vehicle.

The reason it works for the Mustang or Impreza/WRX/STI is because they are literally selling tens upon tens of thousands of these EVERY SINGLE YEAR. The 86/BRZ are down to what, a couple thousand now and never were over 10-15k yr 1. Even take a look at what the STI S209 costs, thats 70K and up depending on dealer addons and thats because its hand built and limited numbers (like what all STIs were back in then 90s). Which, if you're just "tossing an already made turbo 4 from Subaru in," is what you're doing.

What are your made up numbers based on ?

*Edit* I realize the 86/BRZ don't sell. It's probably because for all that it does right, it does what is probably most important to a modern sports car buyer wrong. Anemic powerplant.

[Vides990]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

The 2.0 Zupra is a hot mess. It's way too expensive for what it is and heavy as shit. They didn't even bother to package it correctly. No manual or LSD. Even two of this sites mods agrees with that. Pretty sure they they just watered down their "halo" sports car to just sell a hand full more.

I agree with all that but it doesn't change the fact it also covers the requests of all the "shortfalls" people complained about with the 86. You guys just came up with new shortfalls and reasons not to like it. Not to mention, a manual probably is coming, its just gonna be a ~2023 model.

[Vides990]

Originally Posted by WildCard600

So .... the WRX would be a 17 thousand dollar car if it weren't for the turbo ?

https://www.subaru.com/vehicles/impreza/index.html
18.6k, thats what it starts at.

[Vides990]

Originally Posted by WildCard600

What are your made up numbers based on ?

My numbers are just based on final market prices and sales numbers. I work in aviation/aerospace development, while very different there are plenty of overlapping processes for production creation, just different timescales/lines.

[WildCard600]

Originally Posted by Vides990

https://www.subaru.com/vehicles/impreza/index.html
18.6k, thats what it starts at.

Fair enough I suppose. I forgot the impreza was even still a thing.

Originally Posted by Vides990

My numbers are just based on final market prices and sales numbers. I work in aviation/aerospace development, while very different there are plenty of overlapping processes for production creation, just different timescales/lines.

Toyobaru might as well pack it in then. A $30k car can barely edge out a twenty five thousand dollar car in driving/handling while still getting annihilated in the HP dept. If it's going to cost 40k to be competitive with ford in the market segment they might as well go home.