Video: Toyota GR86 SPIED for the First Time!

[Vides990]

Originally Posted by WildCard600

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I buy japanese cars for a reason. And that reason isn't "european reliability".

Sure, I'm not a BMW fan by any means, but without them there is no Supra, Toyota has said as much. And that car provides the turbos and "luxury" people whined was lacking in the frs/BRZ/86. They just refuse to understand that whole package will never be available for 30k, it's not economically feasible for the company. Beggers don't get to be choosers.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Vides990

Sure, I'm not a BMW fan by any means, but without them there is no Supra, Toyota has said as much. And that car provides the turbos and "luxury" people whined was lacking in the frs/BRZ/86. They just refuse to understand that whole package will never be available for 30k, it's not economically feasible for the company. Beggers don't get to be choosers.

THIS^
Why is this so hard to understand?

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by Vides990

Sure, I'm not a BMW fan by any means, but without them there is no Supra, Toyota has said as much.

The Supra was no doubt an attractive business case for Toyota, otherwise they wouldn't have done it (since financial returns are of paramount importance to them). But from my purely emotional and irrationally selfish perspective, if the biggest and arguably most successful car company in the world can't find the money and balls to reintroduce their all-time iconic sports car by themselves, and have to stoop to buying it from BMW, then just don't do it.

[HKz]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

We are debating on the same side. I repeat that I understand why the car exists and am personally not interested in bigger and better. This does not change the fact that there needs to be enough of us that feel that way for them to continue to make it. If they have already saturated the market with slightly improved cars there just may not be enough people buying it to keep it going. They may not even care if they keep it going though. The first versions were made to fill a void and they did that very very well. The hope is that they didn't fill the void so well that there is no room left for more. If the "next gen" does not attract new buyers then it will be the last.

right we're on the same side I'm only questioning your assessment on how important the size of the market is to Toyota. They have killed off plenty of other models like the FJC & Venza that were actually selling boatloads at the end of their lives in comparison to how many twins that were sold in the last few years combined.. So even if it ends with this new variant and no one buys it, it is still quite respectable for Toyota to do something different when they could've probably left the twins in their original state even before the 17+ updates and no one would've batted an eye.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

I think the simple reason there's no manual in the Supra is because BMW didn't build one.

BMW actually do build a Z4 with a manual, just in the 2.0 version. In the recent past they have paired the B58 with a manual in cars like the M240i as well. So there are no technical reasons either BMW or Toyota could not offer a manual with their 3.0 B58s if they so chose. The fact they don’t means they don’t think it is worth it for the limited uptake.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

The Supra was no doubt an attractive business case for Toyota, otherwise they wouldn't have done it (since financial returns are of paramount importance to them).

The sense I get from afar, and this is just my gut reading of it, is that Toyota president Akio Toyoda wanted a new Supra (he is sportscar obsessed and was the driving force for the 86) and the Toyota board and accountants had to figure out a way to give him his new Supra with the least amount of risk and development cost... hence the BMW partnership. Both the 86 and Supra look like vanity projects for Toyoda san. I am sure the Toyota board and beancounters would have preferred it if neither had been developed and a couple of extra SUV models had been developed in their place. But it’s hard to say ‘no’ to Mr Toyoda!

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by Vides990

Lol, not a chance. That car is going to be a bigger let down then the Supra, no new tech and a 25 yrd old chassis. That looks like more of a reskin then then 2nd gen 86.

I can only speak for myself as one individual buyer, but I personally would be thrilled with a reskinned 370Z with a 400 hp twin turbo engine, as long as it had a manual transmission. If Nissan survives long enough to actually build and offer such a car priced south of $50k, I'm in.

But then, I really like the 370Z. Came very close to buying one instead of the BRZ. Again, I can only speak for myself, but I like old school. I like the basic, elemental, somewhat raw analog feel of the 370Z (duh, my username). I prefer the visceral, immediate response of the torquey naturally aspirated 3.7 liter V6 over a more anodyne turbo engine. I didn't care that the 'infotainment' system was 'dated' in the car. I care more about how a car feels to drive, how much fun it is for me, and not if it has the latest and glitziest 'graphical user interface'. I didn't like the non-existent visibility of the 370Z or the paltry storage space. But then, no car is perfect, especially in the $30k's price range.

Truth be told, if I could have found a 370Z with the specific equipment and color I was looking for, and more importantly, an ethical dealer to sell it to me, I would have bought one instead of the BRZ. But the paucity of 370Z's, at least with the package and color I wanted, combined with the incredible sleaze of most Nissan dealers I dealt with, drove me into Subaru's loving arms.

If the 400ZX is ever actually built - which is far from certain at this point, given Nissan's dire financial straits and the continuing global pandemic - I'd be happy with the current old-school 370Z chassis combined with an updated body and interior. I'd prefer the current naturally aspirated VQ motor over the turbo, but wouldn't kick 400 hp out of bed either. But a 6 speed stick is an absolute deal-breaker must have. I may be in an infinitesimally small minority, but priced reasonably, that package would probably get me out of my BRZ.

I imagine there might be others who wouldn't mind a 400 hp manual transmission Japanese sports car for under $50k. Such as, people who would have loved a reimagined Supra with a stick, and didn't want an automatic-only reskinned BMW Z4.

[WildCard600]

Originally Posted by Vides990

Sure, I'm not a BMW fan by any means, but without them there is no Supra, Toyota has said as much. And that car provides the turbos and "luxury" people whined was lacking in the frs/BRZ/86. They just refuse to understand that whole package will never be available for 30k, it's not economically feasible for the company. Beggers don't get to be choosers.

I don't disagree, but to me the supra might as well have stayed dead vs what Toyota put together. If I wanted to mess with janky BMW engineering I would just buy a BMW.

I think the fact that a WRX starts at $27k with turbo and AWD is the reason people are incredulous that a forced induction 86/BRZ can't be possible in the low/mid $30k range.

At the end of the day I've already come to terms with the fact that I'm going to have to build my 86 to get it to where I think it should have been in the first place. If Toyota thinks that is a winning strategy to get me to come back to their sports car trough again, they are more out of touch than I realized.

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

I like the basic, elemental, somewhat raw analog feel of the 370Z (duh, my username).

You should be spinning rekkids.

[weederr33]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

THIS^
Why is this so hard to understand?

Because the morons think it's like the aftermarket. They think Subaru can just slap the WRX motor in and put a front mounted intercooler in for only an additional $500. And then not bother to beef up or change other things. Or if they do, they think it's super cheap.

[WildCard600]

Originally Posted by weederr33

Because the morons think it's like the aftermarket. They think Subaru can just slap the WRX motor in and put a front mounted intercooler in for only an additional $500. And then not bother to beef up or change other things. Or if they do, they think it's super cheap.

If this thing is built with such a razor thin margin of durability that 50 extra hp is going to cause it to blow apart at the pinch welds I'm not sure I feel safe driving it at all.

I will agree that some people seem to have unrealistic expectations about getting a turbo at the current or ever so slightly higher price point, but I don't think it would suddenly catapult the car into Supra $$$.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by weederr33

Because the morons think it's like the aftermarket. They think Subaru can just slap the WRX motor in and put a front mounted intercooler in for only an additional $500. And then not bother to beef up or change other things. Or if they do, they think it's super cheap.

Imagine the rate at which Toyota techs would have blown up turbo cars doing the valve spring recall

[Lantanafrs2]

"Now that the design is clarified, let the speculation and rumor mongering begin on turbo vs naturally aspirated."

It began a long, long time ago

[Vides990]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

I can only speak for myself as one individual buyer, but I personally would be thrilled with a reskinned 370Z with a 400 hp twin turbo engine, as long as it had a manual transmission. If Nissan survives long enough to actually build and offer such a car priced south of $50k, I'm in.

But then, I really like the 370Z. Came very close to buying one instead of the BRZ. Again, I can only speak for myself, but I like old school. I like the basic, elemental, somewhat raw analog feel of the 370Z (duh, my username). I prefer the visceral, immediate response of the torquey naturally aspirated 3.7 liter V6 over a more anodyne turbo engine. I didn't care that the 'infotainment' system was 'dated' in the car. I care more about how a car feels to drive, how much fun it is for me, and not if it has the latest and glitziest 'graphical user interface'. I didn't like the non-existent visibility of the 370Z or the paltry storage space. But then, no car is perfect, especially in the $30k's price range.

Truth be told, if I could have found a 370Z with the specific equipment and color I was looking for, and more importantly, an ethical dealer to sell it to me, I would have bought one instead of the BRZ. But the paucity of 370Z's, at least with the package and color I wanted, combined with the incredible sleaze of most Nissan dealers I dealt with, drove me into Subaru's loving arms.

If the 400ZX is ever actually built - which is far from certain at this point, given Nissan's dire financial straits and the continuing global pandemic - I'd be happy with the current old-school 370Z chassis combined with an updated body and interior. I'd prefer the current naturally aspirated VQ motor over the turbo, but wouldn't kick 400 hp out of bed either. But a 6 speed stick is an absolute deal-breaker must have. I may be in an infinitesimally small minority, but priced reasonably, that package would probably get me out of my BRZ.

I imagine there might be others who wouldn't mind a 400 hp manual transmission Japanese sports car for under $50k. Such as, people who would have loved a reimagined Supra with a stick, and didn't want an automatic-only reskinned BMW Z4.

I def get and agree with all of that, and I would be in for the same kind of car if available or if I thought Nissan could produce it, but I would say my driving experiences with the 350/370 is completely different. I thought it sucked in every single aspect, not 1 positive, it doesn't feel raw and exciting to me, just bloated, awful and numb. When I said new tech, I meant performance capability, not in dash screens.