Toyota GR Yaris

[why?]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

300 bhp (at the crank), I agree, should be possible with some bolt ons and e85.
300 whp I'll bet against, that's almost what the wrc car puts out, someone will try and I bet it blows.

They can't make a profit overbuilding the engine compared to the wrc version. I guarantee it has cheaper pistons and rods and a less aggressive cam, I wouldn't be surprised if the wrc cars have intakes/exhausts sculpted by hand and checked on flow benches while the consumer products will make sacrifices for mass production.


Please show me the +20hp header without a tune, I must have missed that one.

There will be so few of these made that the aftermarket will be weak aside from stuff that can be easily brought over like coilovers due to shared tnga components.

the wrc version has a massive restrictor. They made it 3 mm bigger and it added 70 hp. Unrestricted it could put out stupid power.


The wrc version is hand built and I am sure they use every trick in the world to strengthen everything. It will not be anything near that. I mean compared to a normal street engine.



There is a lot they cannot change because of homologation rules, so that helps in a lot of different ways. You are also assuming the rating they are advertising now is what the car actually has at the crank. Who knows if that is true, but it seems most turbocharged cars understate their actual power.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by JD001

We have tuning houses in the UK turning out RS's with circa 520bhp.. you can't do that with a front wheel drive..

Well you can. You just probably won't be getting much traction on the street, but then again, 520hp in most light weight cars will have a problem. I'm in the 300's, and I have problems in my 86, but yeah, AWD could be nice then,

https://www.motor1.com/news/129113/h...r-mile-record/

Good read:

https://jalopnik.com/how-to-be-fast-...lai-1795906825

The other thing was the K20C1 engine is pretty bad ass, but the RS engine was known for head gasket problems, among others, which probably hurt some sales.

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...-k20c1-engine/

[Goingnowherefast]

We also have to understand the physics behind making power. Torque production is directly correlated to in-cylinder dynamic pressure. Meaning for a 3 cylinder to make the same torque as a 4 cylinder, the in-cylinder pressures are much much higher.

So what we really need to know before assuming there's a lot of power left on the table is whether is has forged internals, because the rods will be subjected to a lot of force.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by why?

the wrc version has a massive restrictor. They made it 3 mm bigger and it added 70 hp. Unrestricted it could put out stupid power.

Just fyi, that 3mm is a lot, but I get your point. When looking at laminar flow, the flow rate is proportional to the radius to the 4th power, meaning a 3mm change from 33mm to 36mm can be big. As it is, 36mm is a 9% improvement over 33mm, but with the ^4 there is a 42% increase in flow.

This makes more sense when we look at the area of the pipe, which without the laminar flow dynamics discussed above, we see 3mm results in a decent bump in the opening:

{[pi(36mm^2) - pi(33mm^2)] / pi(33mm^2)} x 100 = 19% increase

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by why?

The wrc version is hand built and I am sure they use every trick in the world to strengthen everything. It will not be anything near that. I mean compared to a normal street engine.

As I previously posted, it seems like they can change the internals, but they have to use the same materials and the same block and head. This means weight will increase with the reciprocating masses if they strengthen them unless the GR Yaris comes with forged piston and rods to begin with.

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

We also have to understand the physics behind making power. Torque production is directly correlated to in-cylinder dynamic pressure. Meaning for a 3 cylinder to make the same torque as a 4 cylinder, the in-cylinder pressures are much much higher.

So what we really need to know before assuming there's a lot of power left on the table is whether is has forged internals, because the rods will be subjected to a lot of force.

I kind of mentioned that before in post #265. Power is distributed over 3 cylinders and 3 rods than 4, which means the internals will likely be strengthened over the predecessor.

See above about my comments about the forged internals. I seems likely switching from a 4 cylinder to a 3 cylinder and based on the rules for materials.

[Goingnowherefast]

Originally Posted by JD001

We have tuning houses in the UK turning out RS's with circa 520bhp.. you can't do that with a front wheel drive..

Considering half of the US production based car time attack records are held by two FWD cars, I'd say this is demonstrably false. They are globally competitive and hold many global track records for production based cars as well.

James Houghton (K tuned Integra)
William Au-Yeung (Vibrant Civic)

Also the Civic Type R is already making way above 500 whp despite being out for 1/2 the time as the Focus RS...

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by JD001

I know someone who recently bought a Kia Sportage, I asked whether it was the AWD version, he didn't know resulting in call to the dealer.... People buy because they like the shape/size and the message it portrays..

People buy the Kia Sportage for the utility, low price, and ease of getting in and out. AWD is an afterthought.

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

They don't want hot hatches (RIP Speed 3, STI hatch, Fiesta ST, Focus ST/RS, dying Golf R). Hell they don't even want lightweight roadsters (RIP S2000, Sky/Solstice, dying ND Miata) or lightweight coupes (RIP RX-7, RX-8, dying Twins).

Speed 3 - FWD
STI hatch - heavy - ~3500 lbs
Fiesta ST - FWD
Focus ST - Somewhat heavy >3200lbs - horrible to drive
RS - Heavy >3400 lbs - brutal suspension
Golf R - somewhat heavy >3300lbs - expensive - not that fun.
S2000, Sky/Solstice, RX-7, ND Miata - only 2-seats
RX-8 - insanely unreliable, horrible fuel economy, burns oil
Also Type R - FWD
Twins - amazing in pretty much every way. 2nd gen coming. still have mine.

I like this hot yaris because it's a revival of the 323GTX.

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

Considering half of the US production based car time attack records are held by two FWD cars, I'd say this is demonstrably false. They are globally competitive and hold many global track records for production based cars as well.

James Houghton (K tuned Integra)
William Au-Yeung (Vibrant Civic)

Also the Civic Type R is already making way above 500 whp despite being out for 1/2 the time as the Focus RS...

Often the AWD unlimited cars beat the FWD unlimited by several seconds. Rarely the other way around, and seemingly always with a lesser AWD car. Being able to accelerate out of a corner actually matters.

I would love this Yaris and buy it in a second.

[Goingnowherefast]

Originally Posted by EAGLE5

Often the AWD unlimited cars beat the FWD unlimited by several seconds. Rarely the other way around, and seemingly always with a lesser AWD car. Being able to accelerate out of a corner actually matters.

Yet, in the real world depending on the conditions, that is simply not always the case. People forget, FWD has the advantage of being the lightest drivetrain configuration with (usually) the least drivetrain loss. I shouldn't have to explain the importance of lightness in motorsports haha.

Some examples from the last two seasons:

GTA2019 @ Road Atlanta - Who won? James Houghton FWD (also a track record)
GTA2019 @ NJMP - Who won? James Houghton FWD (Literally beat the 2nd place unlimited (AWD) car by 5 seconds)
Gridlife 2019 @ Mid-Ohio - Who won? James Houghton FWD
Gridlife 2019 @ Road Atlanta - Willl Au-Yeung FWD
Gridlife 2018 @ Gingerman - Who won? Willl Au-Yeung FWD

Just a few examples with a crowded field including many globally competitive AWD cars with professional drivers. No doubt FWD has some obvious disadvantages too, but it's 2020 and the proof is in the pudding. FWD can be very quick, and depending on the track conditions and environment even record breaking.

Originally Posted by EAGLE5

I would love this Yaris and buy it in a second.

x2

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by EAGLE5

Speed 3 - FWD
Fiesta ST - FWD
Also Type R - FWD

You are making an example of a class being more important than individual cars.

Let's try rwd. Are you suggesting all rwd are equally fun to drive?
My father's Volvo was rwd; it was a classic example of a barge. It had no steering feel, slow off the line, rolled like a metric shitload of lard.
My slightly warm Pug 206, fwd, had beautiful lift off over-steer and was a joy to drive.
The Fiesta ST is very highly regarded despite it being fwd.

Fun > driven wheels.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by EAGLE5

Speed 3 - FWD
STI hatch - heavy - ~3500 lbs
Fiesta ST - FWD
Focus ST - Somewhat heavy >3200lbs - horrible to drive
RS - Heavy >3400 lbs - brutal suspension
Golf R - somewhat heavy >3300lbs - expensive - not that fun.
S2000, Sky/Solstice, RX-7, ND Miata - only 2-seats
RX-8 - insanely unreliable, horrible fuel economy, burns oil
Also Type R - FWD
Twins - amazing in pretty much every way. 2nd gen coming. still have mine.

I like this hot yaris because it's a revival of the 323GTX.

You want a sub-3000 lbs, 4-seat AWD turbo sub-compact hatch, I get it. I think it'd be a cool car too. But that's different from saying there's actually a market for that kind of car in the US. A lot of Americans seem to associate compact/sub-compact hatches with cheap cars. I don't think you'll find a lot of buyers willing to pay north of $30 grand for one.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

You want a sub-3000 lbs, 4-seat AWD turbo sub-compact hatch, I get it. I think it'd be a cool car too. But that's different from saying there's actually a market for that kind of car in the US. A lot of Americans seem to associate compact/sub-compact hatches with cheap cars. I don't think you'll find a lot of buyers willing to pay north of $30 grand for one.

AWD turbo 4-seater under 3000lbs would NEED to be cheap or really, really expensive.

[weederr33]

Guess Toyota is letting us vote out thoughts on bringing a GR hatch to the US. Might as well sign away!

https://www.toyota.com/upcoming-vehicles/gr-hot-hatch/

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

Yet, in the real world depending on the conditions, that is simply not always the case. People forget, FWD has the advantage of being the lightest drivetrain configuration with (usually) the least drivetrain loss. I shouldn't have to explain the importance of lightness in motorsports haha.

On the road I drive on, FWD means scrambling for purchase. RWD means sliding. AWD means sticking.

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

You are making an example of a class being more important than individual cars.

Let's try rwd. Are you suggesting all rwd are equally fun to drive?
My father's Volvo was rwd; it was a classic example of a barge. It had no steering feel, slow off the line, rolled like a metric shitload of lard.
My slightly warm Pug 206, fwd, had beautiful lift off over-steer and was a joy to drive.
The Fiesta ST is very highly regarded despite it being fwd.

Fun > driven wheels.

I've had a lot of fun in FWD, but a lot more fun in RWD. AWD is actually less fun because there's too much grip accelerating out of the corners. But damn do I get home faster. Well, not in the Forester.

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

You want a sub-3000 lbs, 4-seat AWD turbo sub-compact hatch, I get it. I think it'd be a cool car too. But that's different from saying there's actually a market for that kind of car in the US. A lot of Americans seem to associate compact/sub-compact hatches with cheap cars. I don't think you'll find a lot of buyers willing to pay north of $30 grand for one.

Yes, that's what I want. Preferably 2-door. Like an AWD Fiesta ST. As for market, if you build it, they will come!

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

AWD turbo 4-seater under 3000lbs would NEED to be cheap or really, really expensive.

I'd go either way. Well, define really, really. I'd prefer cheap. More fun that way.

Originally Posted by weederr33

Guess Toyota is letting us vote out thoughts on bringing a GR hatch to the US. Might as well sign away!

https://www.toyota.com/upcoming-vehicles/gr-hot-hatch/

I'm in!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by weederr33

Guess Toyota is letting us vote out thoughts on bringing a GR hatch to the US. Might as well sign away!

https://www.toyota.com/upcoming-vehicles/gr-hot-hatch/

It doesn't say that.
In fact I am not sure what they are saying really.

"While GR Yaris isn't coming to the U.S., perhaps it's time the U.S. got a Toyota hot hatch to call its own."