Toyota GR Yaris

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

dying ND Miata

Miata is dying?

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Miata is dying?

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/mazda-...sales-figures/

Not many people buying the ND, even with the refresh.

[weederr33]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Took the words right out of my mouth. The Yaris GR4 would likely flop in the US. That's just the market here in the US. The vast majority of Americans (even those who supposedly want "sports cars") want muscle cars or sedans. They don't want hot hatches (RIP Speed 3, STI hatch, Fiesta ST, Focus ST/RS, dying Golf R). Hell they don't even want lightweight roadsters (RIP S2000, Sky/Solstice, dying ND Miata) or lightweight coupes (RIP RX-7, RX-8, dying Twins).

People love to blame the manufacturers for not bringing fun, lightweight cars to the US, but you can't blame them. The cars they do bring lose out in the HP wars. Even when people buy them, they don't want to pay new car prices so they buy them used.

Frankly, I'll take a hot or even mild corolla over no GR4 yaris. Even if I can only squeeze out another 20-30hp reliably, I would be happy. My days of heavy modding are fading away with age.

[NemesisPrime909]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Took the words right out of my mouth. The Yaris GR4 would likely flop in the US. That's just the market here in the US. The vast majority of Americans (even those who supposedly want "sports cars") want muscle cars or sedans. They don't want hot hatches (RIP Speed 3, STI hatch, Fiesta ST, Focus ST/RS, dying Golf R). Hell they don't even want lightweight roadsters (RIP S2000, Sky/Solstice, dying ND Miata) or lightweight coupes (RIP RX-7, RX-8, dying Twins).

People love to blame the manufacturers for not bringing fun, lightweight cars to the US, but you can't blame them. The cars they do bring lose out in the HP wars. Even when people buy them, they don't want to pay new car prices so they buy them used.

this may have been one of the most depressing posts i've seen on this site. But you're not wrong. it's why Mitsubishi only sells an suv and 3 crossovers now. Around here people adore the new Mustang and the Challenger.

So the question is, how do we keep Japanese sports cars alive in the US when the demographic is the way it is?

[NemesisPrime909]

Originally Posted by weederr33

Frankly, I'll take a hot or even mild corolla over no GR4 yaris. Even if I can only squeeze out another 20-30hp reliably, I would be happy. My days of heavy modding are fading away with age.

You make a fair point. It took me 15 years to be able to buy my Supra. Now that I have it I'm of two minds. The old me want to do an amazing build, the current me wants to restore it as best as I can to insure it lives a long life.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Correlation does not imply causation.

OH?

[JD001]

Originally Posted by Pat

OH?

I can see the relationship.. is he still making films? Someone should stop him as he's a liability..

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/mazda-...sales-figures/

Not many people buying the ND, even with the refresh.

Almost 2x miatas sold vs 86 and BRZ combined.

More mustangs sold in March than the other three combined all year.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Almost 2x miatas sold vs 86 and BRZ combined.

More mustangs sold in March than the other three combined all year.

Haha and two times zero is...?

The latter was really my point anyway.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by NemesisPrime909

I know that. It's just the way it plays out. I'm implementing hyperbole to make it seem more funny.

I know it's not that guy's fault. It's just funny that despite all the people saying "yes" Toyota's Twitter responded to the one guy saying"no"

My apologies. I didn't see the humour in your post. Sometimes emotional content isn't apparent in forum posts.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NemesisPrime909

this may have been one of the most depressing posts i've seen on this site. But you're not wrong. it's why Mitsubishi only sells an suv and 3 crossovers now. Around here people adore the new Mustang and the Challenger.

So the question is, how do we keep Japanese sports cars alive in the US when the demographic is the way it is?

Unfortunately, the only way is with buyers/demand, so unless people are willing to shell out the money then it isn't going to happen, and I don't see the landscape changing at all.

Japanese sports cars were all about tech back in the day. A light weight high revving four cylinder could beat a low tech V8 back in the 90's. Unfortunately for the Japanese, the American cars have finally caught up. They were also overbuilt, which made them the better tuning platform, but now that field has shifted to the American cars because they have tuning ability and displacement. Japanese cars were about driving performance and handling, and American cars were about drag racing, but now a Camaro LT1 1LE can best supercars around the Nurburgring. The Japanese heavyweights were so exotic before with their sequential twin turbo systems of the mid nineties or with their high revving motors like that of the S2000 with an amazingly high specific output, but now there is a flat-plane V8 in a GT350 revving to 8.5k rpms that sounds like a Ferrari.

Enter the 2000's and the Japanese sports cars began to get conservative and inexpensive, taking a step back, like the 350z, Eclipse, MR2 and RX8. There was a shift from front engine, rear wheel drive, GT-looking cars to rally cars. These STIs and Evos had the racing pedigree to give them street credit, while being capable of great 0-60 times and tuning potential. What is more, they were practical cars. They were four doors, so they comfortably fit all your friends, and they could actually operate as a good daily driver. They looked good with roof racks and could take a person to the ski slopes on the weekends and destroy a Camaro the next day, but alas, the tall wings and aggressive styling got old, and drifting was becoming more popular.

Drifting saw a resurgence of FR platforms, but at this point, there wasn't much available from the Japanese market. Many people used 350Zs or older, lighter Japanese cars to get the power-to-weight ratio right.

It seemed like this was also a time when cops were cracking down on street racing and modified vehicles, so people began to show their car and stance their car.

Another trend was the emergence of the luxury sports sedan. Used luxury cars were cheap and a little more reliable. A used M3 had the comfort of a luxury car, the sound and highway acceleration of a muscle car and the handling of some sports cars. These cars were tunable and made better daily drivers, while being understated than a loud looking sports car.

Between the need for power for drifting, the competition for luxury sports sedans, the introduction of E85 and the culmination of American cars finally getting some tech into their muscle cars, the horsepower wars began to take over, which was followed by the practical car battle--the hot hatch war.

So where does this leave Japanese sports cars?

Most Japanese sports cars haven't progressed enough (370z), are out of reach (NSX, GTR), are not Japanese enough (Supra), aren't hitting the mark enough (Civic Type R, STI) or are behind the competition (Miata, GT86) when it comes to most metrics of performance.

The best hand the Japanese can play to compete with the V8's is ease of tunability, which is what they are doing with the Supra and probably with the next 400Z. The other hand is to keep the weight down and offer something with engagement and finesse like the 86 or Civic Type R. Unfortunately, not enough people like the idea of driving a fast looking car that is slower than a SUV, so they have to find a way of making it an easy tuner car, or they need to out tech the competition with some type of hybrid systems. I wish a back-to-basics approach could work, but it can't in a market where people can only own one car, and if they have to pick for them or the family, it is more likely going to be a SUV.

This is seldom discussed, but the other problem is the dealer networks. Demand for sports cars is low, but so is production, and dealers take advantage of this by jacking up the price of sports cars. Mustangs will see this less than Supras, but even special and top editions of Mustangs will see markups. This hurts sports car sales that much more. Why would anyone pay the premium for a sports car when your average sedan or SUV has more power than most people need. A 2.0T Accord gets to 60 faster than a 86 by half a second.

This is turning into a long rant, but I don't think there is much wiggle room for Japanese sports cars to make a resurgence, especially in a downward turning economy. Safety, fuel economy, battery tech, driving aids, utility are all driving sales--not driver engagement and connection with driving; tuning into reality is the exact opposite of where society is going. Manual transmissions are dying. Petite sports cars are dying. Horsepower and performance are becoming cheaper and cheaper, more than most people need or want. Their end is not far from the horizon. I think the future for sports cars will be resined to boutique companies and classic restorations. Enjoy your 86 while you can.

[JD001]

Originally Posted by NemesisPrime909

this may have been one of the most depressing posts i've seen on this site. But you're not wrong. it's why Mitsubishi only sells an suv and 3 crossovers now. Around here people adore the new Mustang and the Challenger.

So the question is, how do we keep Japanese sports cars alive in the US when the demographic is the way it is?

The same thing is happening in the UK, people want SUVs and so-called "sports" SUVs.. And, people's understanding of what they are buying only goes as far as the badge on the bonnet, the ICE and other stupid gadgets.

I know someone who recently bought a Kia Sportage, I asked whether it was the AWD version, he didn't know resulting in call to the dealer.... People buy because they like the shape/size and the message it portrays..

I remember before the Twins, drivers were asking for a small, lightweight, fun, cheap sports car but when it appeared no one wanted to buy it...

The other thing that I have pondered, does your "average" petrolhead swap cars often enough to keep a niche product going? I enjoy cars but I don't swap out every year or even 3 years.. I buy when I like something irrespective of timing..

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by JD001

People buy because they like the shape/size and the message it portrays..

This.

[why?]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

The new twins prove the point that Europeans emissions aren't holding back much of anything, 2.5% is nothing to write home about. The turbo cars are balancing reliability and fuel economy with their tunes, easy to crank up the boost but you can not break physics, there's only so much power to be made by burning fuel in a 1.6L combustion chamber. Those F1 engines wouldn't last 20 laps on their max power tunes and often raced at <1000hp levels and even then most blew up. Niki Lauda finished 3 races in 1985 when Mclaren claimed the constructors championship off Alain Prost's back.

Let's back up here, how much do YOU think the aftermarket can squeeze out of this engine reliably? How much headroom do you think is left?

Who knows. But if you can get 20 hp out of the twins just changing the header, saying no one will get near 300 out of this engine is silly. I'd be stunned if you leave the engine and turbo stock but add tuning and e 85 you could not hit 300. I'd also be stunned if the engine wasn't totally overbuilt so you didn't have to open it up until some gigantic amount of boost was being pushed through it.



I'm not saying it can hold at some dumb number, but thinking the proper bolt ons and tune cannot get to 300 is silly. That isn't a massive amount extra. Toyota knows what the aftermarket can do to a car's reputation, and is courting them by making sure what they put out has some reasonable amount of head room.